Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?

[Jezebel]

Yes it is ... because it doesn't change the FACT that an innocent, unborn human being is being executed by no fault of his/her own.

Okay, so don't use red herrings like "irresponsibility" and "had a part in creating".

Even if she's pregnant through no fault of her own you think she should still be forced to continue the pregnancy. So why pretend it's about responsibility?

 

[PureX]

We all have crosses to bear in life.
Its sad that you think a beautiful new life is a punishment.

It's sad that your fantasies about a clump of cells that will possibly one day become a human being is more important than the beautiful young woman that it's growing inside, who has already suffered the trauma of a rape.

A good person takes somnething bad and makes good come of it. That child could bless a family seeking to adopt.

A good person allows other people to decide such a life-changing course of action for themselves, and doesn't insist on forcing their own fantasies and moral proclivities on them.

You see, people like you just want to kill and destroy. It never crosses your mind that this beautiful baby could actually be a blessing to a family.

And just as you couldn't care less about the views of the rape victim, you couldn't care less about mine, either. As long as I don't bow to your views, I become just, "people like you who want to kill and destroy".

 

[Jezebel]

Of course not. You punish the victim by forcing her to carry his baby.

Thank you. You basically just said what I wanted to say in a much simpler way.

The woman in the scenario is either blamed for being irresponsible, or in the case of rape just ignored all together.

And no matter what her reason for abortion, she's apparently selfish, evil and the scum of the earth.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.......A good person allows other people to decide such a life-changing course of action for themselves.......

That does not include murdering an innocent human being. Nobody has the right to make THAT call!

Are you stuck on stupid or something? How many times must we demonstrate from science that the child in the womb is a unique human being and therefore killing him or her is murder!

.....And just as you couldn't care less about the views of the rape victim.........

If their view is that murdering innocent children is their right, then it is THEY who do not care, not me.

Tell me: How does slaughtering a child heal a rape victim? I would love to see you provide medical proof that slaughtering a child heals a rape victim

 

[quip]

That does not include murdering an innocent human being. Nobody has the right to make THAT call!

CC do you concede to the neccesity of abortion if the mother's life is at stake? If so, exactly how do you morally reconcile "murdering an innocent human being" under such circumstances?

Is the fetus no longer "innocent"; is it not "murder"; not a "human being" within this scenario? Please explain why you'd "..make THAT call".

 

[Cruciform]

When should abortion be a legal option?

Your poll didn't include the option I would choose:

"Never, in any case, should abortion be a legal option."​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[quip]

Your poll didn't include the option I would choose:

"Never, in any case, should abortion be a legal option."​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

:doh:
The poll addresses pro-choicers...which you obviously are not.

 

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz
If a woman should never have to give up her bodily autonomy in favor of the fetus how can you justify criminalizing late-term abortions?

When did I say I'd criminalize them.?

Can you please clarify by coming out and clearly stating where you stand on the legality of abortion? You have not voted on the poll and, to me, are offering contradicting statements on what, if anything, you feel should be illegal.

Well I pretty much outlined what I think the law should to Rusha but personally I think they're unnecessary given that the fetus could be delivered alive and turned over to the hospital at no inconvenience to the mother.

Can you point me to this post? I apologize that I missed it.

It's possible for you to be forced to choose between aborting or the mother survival. For example, women with cancer that need chemotherapy. Should they be denied chemo until they give birth?

Why is abortion okay to save the mother's life?

The fetus must be removed if the mother is going to die without such action. All care should be made and all attempts should be made to keep the fetus alive, but if the mother dies, they both die, and the end result for the fetus is the same.

How about this, She's 19, no prior criminal record and rejected a plea deal with the DA. She was 5 weeks pregnant and aborted by ordering mifepristone of the internet.

You're the judge. How many years?

Also, if you were the DA what kind of plea deal would you give her?

Again, it depends on the state but I did do some digging for you.

"Louisiana is one of at least 38 states with fetal homicide laws, and one of 23 with such laws applying to the earliest stage of pregnancy, according to the National Council of State Legislatures (NCSL).

Feticide in Indiana is a Class B felony, and a conviction could carry a six-to-20-year prison sentence"

This seems fair.

Whatever a person would usually be charged with if they seriously injured someone in a drunk driving accident. I don't believe they should be charged with "murder" if that's what you're asking.

I don't think feticide should even be a charge.

Take a look at this case. Should he not be charged with a crime at all?

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — The 28-year-old son of a Florida fertility doctor has been charged by federal authorities with tricking his girlfriend into taking a pill used to induce labor and cause an abortion, killing the embryo she was carrying. John Andrew Welden was indicted Tuesday by a federal grand jury on charges of product tampering and first-degree murder and faces up to life in prison if convicted of the murder charge. He's also the defendant in a lawsuit filed in state court by his ex-girlfriend, 26-year-old Remee Lee.

Your thoughts?

What if she hires a hitman to shoot her newborn in the face? What should the charge be then? Again, why not murder?

Yes, that is murder. Clearly.

You do believe abortion is murder correct?

:doh: I believe it is feticide. I think we've been over this.

Why are you content with feticide if these women are no different then people who murder their newborns?

So killing a fetus is different then killing a born child? The murder of a fetus isn't as important as the murder of a living person?

I would have no qualms over abortion being legally classified as murder. I'm a pragmatist offering middle ground here. I would be content with the practice being outlawed.

Period.

 

[WizardofOz]

No I'm not. Like I said to WizardofOZ. You keep drawing these conclusions with no reason to back them up, just because you say so. Just because you want me to be inconsistent doesn't mean I am. You asked what decisions I would make for my own pregnancy vs what I think the law should be. No inconsistency there.

If a woman has an abortion at 9 months I don't believe she should face criminal charges. However, I don't think the doctor should face any penalties should he deliver the fetus alive. If a law was drawn up that said after the point of viability the doctor can deliver the fetus alive and face no penalty. I'd have no issues with that law. I'm only interested in women being able to keep complete rights to their bodily autonomy.

This must be the post you were referring to. So, effectively your opinion is that abortion should be legal anytime for any reason, correct?

Earlier you mentioned middle ground. What middle ground do you feel you are offering, given your sentiment on the legality of abortion?

 

[IMJerusha]

Of course not. You punish the victim by forcing her to carry his baby.

Bologna! That's part of the lie I bought into. Carrying my child wouldn't have been punishment. It would have been liberating as opposed to what ensued my abortion.

 

[PureX]

Bologna! That's part of the lie I bought into. Carrying my child wouldn't have been punishment. It would have been liberating as opposed to what ensued my abortion.

You're feelings don't set the criteria for all womankind.

 

[Balerion the Black]

Bologna! That's part of the lie I bought into. Carrying my child wouldn't have been punishment. It would have been liberating as opposed to what ensued my abortion.

No one forces you to get an abortion.

And you don't get to make that decision for others.

 

[Cruciform]

:doh:The poll addresses pro-choicers...which you obviously are not.

No, I'm not. My mistake.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

March For Life: January 22, 2014
Website: http://marchforlife.org/
Thread: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98643
Live Coverage: http://www.ewtn.com

The biggest march in the United States with the most people every year, and the biggest protest in the United States with the most people every year, is the one march and protest that the mainstream media blacks out and never reports on. But I will:

March for Life
2014 March for Life
January 22, 2014
http://marchforlife.org/


QUOTE:
We look forward to seeing you at the 41st annual March for Life on January 22, 2014 ! Send a text message to 99000 with the keyword MARCH4LIFE for updates.

Schedule:

**The March will not be canceled due to inclement weather. Please dress appropriately by wearing many layers, and covering extremities!

11:15-11:45 Matt Maher on the National Mall

12:00 March for Life Rally - Full Lineup of Speakers: http://marchforlife.org/media-center/press-contacts

1:00 March for Life to the U.S. Supreme Court

We encourage you to visit your Congressman - http://marchforlife.org/march-with-us/capitol-hill-receptions

....to advocate for life upon completing the March: http://marchforlife.org/take-action/citizen-lobbying-0#overlay-context=take-action/contact-your-legislator

More pics and videos: http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/over-400000-march-for-life-in-washington-dc-pics-and-videos/

 

[Rusha]

Of course not. You punish the victim by forcing her to carry his baby.

Allowing an innocent child to live is not punishment. That is a lie that pro-abortion advocates use to justify the killing of the innocent.

 

[WizardofOz]

No one forces you to get an abortion.

And you don't get to make that decision for others.

You voted for: "For any reason, but only up to a certain period during pregnancy"

If a woman is past your arbitrary "certain period" and wants an abortion, are you making that decision for her? :think:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Allowing an innocent child to live is not punishment. That is a lie that pro-abortion advocates use to justify the killing of the innocent.

Yep. We see a child as a gift, a sweet babe. They see him as a parasite that needs to be sliced out and disposed of. Its truly evil

 

[PureX]

Allowing an innocent child to live is not punishment. That is a lie that pro-abortion advocates use to justify the killing of the innocent.

You romanticize a clump of cells that will develop into a human being, into an "innocent child", and then accuse anyone who disagree with you of being a "murderer".

I'm sorry, but I don't see that as a particularly moral position. I see it mostly as a self-centric position.

At some point in the development process, the clump of cells will become a human person, and because we do not know when that is, I believe we should limit abortion to the earliest stages of development, as is reasonably possible. And I, personally, would not choose to abort even then. But I don't have the right to force other people to comply with my choice, because their choice ISN'T my choice. As a society, however, I think we should keep the laws as they are, or maybe limit them to an even earlier time frame. Maybe something like 12-16 weeks or less.

Can we reasonably expect a woman to recognize that she is pregnant in that time period? If so, I think it's reasonable to require her to make up her mind quickly, while the development process is still in it's early stages. If she can't do that, then perhaps it's better that she take it to term, anyway.

 

[Cruciform]

You romanticize a clump of cells that will develop into a human being...

...declares PureX, a "clump of cells" that is himself still "developing as a human being." :think:

 

[One Eyed Jack]

You romanticize a clump of cells that will develop into a human being, into an "innocent child", and then accuse anyone who disagree with you of being a "murderer".

I'm sorry, but I don't see that as a particularly moral position. I see it mostly as a self-centric position.

At some point in the development process, the clump of cells will become a human person, and because we do not know when that is, I believe we should limit abortion to the earliest stages of development, as is reasonably possible. And I, personally, would not choose to abort even then.

Why not? Maybe you're romanticizing a clump of cells too.