Post of the day...Idiot variety

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glorydaz

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Actually, I believe the opposite to be true. It is the Law that leads us to Christ. It was the Law that led Paul to see that he is dead and needs life. The Law reveals sin, so that those who say they have no sin are proved to be liars.



Indeed, that is the purpose of the Law (schoolmaster).....then we graduate into LIFE, where we are not under the law any more. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Those aren't just empty words, brother. Romans 4:8

Grace is meaningless if someone has no need for it. Jesus died for our sins. To claim that what you are doing is not a sin, makes His death in vain.

Of course all men need God's Grace. His death is only in vain if we reject it. Those who are IN CHRIST JESUS have not rejected it....they have been persuaded that He has performed what He has promised. We certainly can't keep the law well enough to earn Grace. We can't have enough kids to earn it, and we can't earn it by making our wives have babies where babies aren't meant to grow. There is not one of us who can find justification through obedience of the law. We certainly don't obtain life through obedience to the law, and we will never be made righteous by obedience to the law. To claim we are still under the law for righteousness is a mistake.

Romans 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​
 

IMJerusha

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I gave you a direct answer.

No, you didn't. Try a yes or no. What you gave me is something designed to lead me to an assumption. From what you gave me, I assume your answer is yes, the rhythm method is sinful. Is that a yes or a no? Will you dance around it again?

Absolute nonsense. Eve could have said the same thing. In fact, she used her brain and all of mankind suffers because of it. Now we have women today thinking they are more equipped to decide who and who should not be conceived. It is the intent of an evil heart to tell God that you will be in control.

I'll agree with you about mankind suffering on account of Eve's sin but do you honestly believe that man can take away God's control?

Consider this: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body." A man who does not practice restraint concerning his wife's health by giving her body time to heal from pregnancy and birth is a man who does not care for her as Christ does the church. Is a husband being disobedient to God if he does practice restraint? No, he is not. But you are a man who thinks woman is equipped to control God and that He is not the Supreme Creator capable of circumventing any preventive pregnancy measures. It tickles me to think about how many times He has thwarted preventive pregnancy measures.
 
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glorydaz

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But you would agree that God does not want us to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc., even though we are no longer under the Law, right?

Of course. However, we live in a corrupt world of sin. We each must walk in the light we're given....being led by the Spirit. We see the problem right here of expecting others to walk in our convictions. You say any form of birth control is a sin. Therefore, you have made a law that you expect others to follow. Suppose I make a law where you can't eat shell fish, or must keep the Sabbath, or go to church. Suppose I make a law where you must sell all you have and give it all to the poor or you'll be sinning if you don't. That's the problem with LAWS. Not only are they set in stone, they lead men to be tempted to break them, and they bring on GUILT when they can't keep them. That's what Paul talks about in Romans 7....it's the law of the "forbidden fruit." The law was never meant to make men do right.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Of course. However, we live in a corrupt world of sin. We each must walk in the light we're given....being led by the Spirit. We see the problem right here of expecting others to walk in our convictions. You say any form of birth control is a sin. Therefore, you have made a law that you expect others to follow. Suppose I make a law where you can't eat shell fish, or must keep the Sabbath, or go to church. Suppose I make a law where you must sell all you have and give it all to the poor or you'll be sinning if you don't. That's the problem with LAWS. Not only are they set in stone, they lead men to be tempted to break them, and they bring on GUILT when they can't keep them. That's what Paul talks about in Romans 7....it's the law of the "forbidden fruit." The law was never meant to make men do right.

Yep, there's freedom in Christ!
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I gave you a direct answer.


Absolute nonsense. Eve could have said the same thing. In fact, she used her brain and all of mankind suffers because of it. Now we have women today thinking they are more equipped to decide who and who should not be conceived. It is the intent of an evil heart to tell God that you will be in control.

So everything's Eve's fault, because she used her mental faculties? Where was Adam in all of this? Staring at the ground and shuffling his feet or something? Should women simply not exercise their intelligence at all and play the dutiful doting wife 'Phil Robertson' style?

Just bizarre.
 

Lighthouse

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Every jot and tittle. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for all who believe. The purpose of the law is to show men what sin is that they may then turn to God for His mercy and Grace. It is to lead us to Christ. It takes us up to the point of being indwelt by the Spirit and then we walk according to the Spirit...not according to the schoolmaster. Galatians 3:25

We each must seek God's will for our lives. If we don't, we are not walking by faith at all, but by sight.
Romans 14:4-10
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.​
Who said anything about righteousness? Regardless of the fact that it does not affect our righteousness we should not do many of the things prohibited in the law. There is no "right for us" on the occasion God wills it for us.

Being under grace and not the law does not make it OK for us to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc. So this argument of yours fails from the outset.

If you want to argue that certain forms of birth control are not sin then you must prove that they do not break a command of God that applies to all of us.

So, can you show that "Be fruitful and multiply" does not apply to all of us?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Is there any statute or clause expressly saying that every time a married couple have sex it's with the intention of producing offspring? Otherwise just having one child has been fruitful...
 

glorydaz

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Yep, there's freedom in Christ!

Indeed, which puts me in mind of what Paul writes concerning the vail that is taken away. That's what happens when we are born of the Spirit. The ministration of the Spirit is so much more glorious than the Law, itself, can ever be. With the Spirit, we are being "trained"...taught, as it were, with all of life's lessons. The liberty we have is really about having our own GUIDE always present, and He has us each walking exactly where He wants us to walk....as the individuals we are.


2 Cor. 3:4-5
And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;​

2 Cor. 3:6-12
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:​

2 Cor. 3:13-18
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
 

Nick M

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So everything's Eve's fault, because she used her mental faculties? Where was Adam in all of this?

Not standing up to feminism and being an effeminate. God lays the death of man at Adam's feet. He does not argue against it. He is just showing her action was also evil.
 

glorydaz

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Who said anything about righteousness? Regardless of the fact that it does not affect our righteousness we should not do many of the things prohibited in the law. There is no "right for us" on the occasion God wills it for us.

Being under grace and not the law does not make it OK for us to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc. So this argument of yours fails from the outset.

If you want to argue that certain forms of birth control are not sin then you must prove that they do not break a command of God that applies to all of us.

So, can you show that "Be fruitful and multiply" does not apply to all of us?

Ah, thank you for proving the "fruits" of being under the law. I never said it was "right" for us to murder. I said YOU do not have a right to tell someone else what "murder" is. What you seem to forget is that INTENT is strictly according to the spirit of the law, and you are trying to enforce the letter of the law.

Why in the world would "Be fruitful and multiply" apply to us today? You guys are so good about talking about not all the Bible applying to us, and then you fall down on this one in order to promote your personal agenda. Pardon me if I have to stop and chuckle over that one. :chuckle:
 

glorydaz

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Is there any statute or clause expressly saying that every time a married couple have sex it's with the intention of producing offspring? Otherwise just having one child has been fruitful...

We could really take this seriously and claim any wasted "seed" displeases God. I wonder how many men would like that rule?

Gen. 38:9-10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.​
 

Lighthouse

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Ah, thank you for proving the "fruits" of being under the law. I never said it was "right" for us to murder. I said YOU do not have a right to tell someone else what "murder" is. What you seem to forget is that INTENT is strictly according to the spirit of the law, and you are trying to enforce the letter of the law.
I have every right to tell someone else what murder is. What I don't have is the right to define murder in my own terms.

And there is no "spirit of the law" discussed in Scripture. And sin is transgression of the law; not the spirit of the law, but the letter.

And while it is true that where there is no law there is no transgression, we still should not disregard the letter of the law.

And I say none of this without the caveat that we should each seek God for what He wants from us rather than just turning to the law each time, as there have been repeals and such, for instance. And also because sometimes, often, we don't know what is and isn't right even when we know the letter of the law.

Why in the world would "Be fruitful and multiply" apply to us today? You guys are so good about talking about not all the Bible applying to us, and then you fall down on this one in order to promote your personal agenda. Pardon me if I have to stop and chuckle over that one. :chuckle:
Why wouldn't it? Do you think God wants us to stop populating the Earth?
 

Lighthouse

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We could really take this seriously and claim any wasted "seed" displeases God. I wonder how many men would like that rule?
Gen. 38:9-10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.​
God gave a specific command to a specific single person who then disobeyed Him. There is no command that could arguably be applied to all of us that we go into our brother's wives if our brother dies without offspring.

But since you brought it up do you think that Sozo would argue that spilling seed is not a sin, as it is maybe a form of birth control?

And if Adam and eve had not eaten of the tree they were commanded not to do you think that command [to not eat of that tree] would not apply to all their descendants who would be living in Eden now, for the past 6000 years and all the years to come? What about the command in the main question of "Be fruitful and multiply"?
 

glorydaz

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So everything's Eve's fault, because she used her mental faculties? Where was Adam in all of this? Staring at the ground and shuffling his feet or something? Should women simply not exercise their intelligence at all and play the dutiful doting wife 'Phil Robertson' style?

Just bizarre.

Actually, Eve didn't use her brain. She was "beguiled". ;)


Satan deceived her through the lusts of the flesh. Adam is the one who knew what he was doing, and chose the woman over God.

In fact, there is a good application here that we should consider. Man is always tempted to sin through the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, or the pride of life. When a couple seeks the Lord about whether to have more children or not....seeking His will in their life, what would be the motives involved? :think:
 

glorydaz

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I have every right to tell someone else what murder is. What I don't have is the right to define murder in my own terms.

That sounds like a contradiction to me.

And there is no "spirit of the law" discussed in Scripture. And sin is transgression of the law; not the spirit of the law, but the letter.

Are you denying there is such a thing? What do you think Paul meant when he said the law was spiritual? Romans 7:14

I think you'll see the difference in Matt. 5. We commit adultery when we look with lust....spirit of the law (magnified). Now, once we admit that we can not keep the law as God intends us to, then we can move past obedience to the law to the obedience of faith. Keeping the letter is outward obedience...keeping the spirit is walking by faith.


And while it is true that where there is no law there is no transgression, we still should not disregard the letter of the law.

Since it was made for the ungodly, the ungodly should heed it. It was not made for the righteous man. 1 Timothy 1:9 We don't need the law to tell us right from wrong....we have the indwelling Spirit and a heart purified by faith.

And I say none of this without the caveat that we should each seek God for what He wants from us rather than just turning to the law each time, as there have been repeals and such, for instance. And also because sometimes, often, we don't know what is and isn't right even when we know the letter of the law.

That's very true....sometimes we don't know. When in doubt, don't. Which is why we are told to wait upon the Lord. We wait for that peace that He is faithful to give.


Why wouldn't it? Do you think God wants us to stop populating the Earth?

The earth is populated. Here's what I say. Each person must walk in the light the Lord gives him. He is not to walk according to another man's convictions. The hand does not have to consult the foot before it responds to the head.
 

glorydaz

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Yes. The last time the command to multiply was given there were less than 10 humans. He said subdue the earth not destroy it.

And you make an excellent point. When was the last time someone was told to build an ark....or march around a city blowing trumpets....or sacrifice a spotless lamb?
 

glorydaz

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God gave a specific command to a specific single person who then disobeyed Him. There is no command that could arguably be applied to all of us that we go into our brother's wives if our brother dies without offspring.

It was a joke, Lighthouse. And I was actually referring to something like masturbation, for instance. Talking about making rules and all....

But since you brought it up do you think that Sozo would argue that spilling seed is not a sin, as it is maybe a form of birth control?

I have no idea. I haven't heard anyone but Catholics be so serious about birth control.

And if Adam and eve had not eaten of the tree they were commanded not to do you think that command [to not eat of that tree] would not apply to all their descendants who would be living in Eden now, for the past 6000 years and all the years to come? What about the command in the main question of "Be fruitful and multiply"?

That is one of those hypotheticals that wouldn't happen because it was never meant to happen in the first place. I swear, people worry more about things that would never happen than they do about the problems they actually face. And, they worry more about what the other guy might do wrong than they SHOULD. :carryon:
 

Nick M

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Wow. Almost 120 replies already because Catholic Crusader has an aptitude problem. I didn't mean to derail the feminist thread.
 
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