ECT "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" - The Catholic Church

KerimF

New member
You have ventured out of the realm of the truth that Jesus was preaching.
Jesus said let the dead bury the dead because Jesus, the RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE was standing there in front of him, but he wanted to go bury his father at a funeral.
Jesus isn't speaking against a "Christian funeral" and burying your parents!
Jesus was speaking against the man who was taking off and leaving him to bury his father---leaving Christ who could raise his father.

You may be right.
But, in my knowledge, every religion or culture has well-defined formalities of how to run a funeral. So it is normal saying for example: "This corpse was buried following the Hindus funeral."

It happens that Jesus only, didn't specify any rules to be followed to run any ritual, including the funeral. Therefore, a Christian funeral cannot be referred to Jesus Christ teachings; actually, its formalities have to be approved by the men in charge of a Church/Denomination (likely inherited from their previous local generations).

Real churches as in the new testament times are in people's homes, not in a big building with rich pastors.

Thank you. I wonder why I didn't hear yet of such Churches. Perhaps you mean a form of 'Christian fellowship online'.

By the way, it is not easy at all for a person to repeat clearly and openly (via one or more satellite TV channels) Jesus' hint concerning the 'rich man'; unless he (if not the TV channel as well) is ready to be eliminated, soon after... in one way or another. After all, politics, everywhere, has to be run by rich men and their privileged servants :D
 

God's Truth

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You may be right.
But, in my knowledge, every religion or culture has well-defined formalities of how to run a funeral. So it is normal saying for example: "This corpse was buried following the Hindus funeral."

It happens that Jesus only, didn't specify any rules to be followed to run any ritual, including the funeral. Therefore, a Christian funeral cannot be referred to Jesus Christ teachings; actually, its formalities have to be approved by the men in charge of a Church/Denomination (likely inherited from their previous local generations).



Thank you. I wonder why I didn't hear yet of such Churches. Perhaps you mean a form of 'Christian fellowship online'.

By the way, it is not easy at all for a person to repeat clearly and openly (via one or more satellite TV channels) Jesus' hint concerning the 'rich man'; unless he (if not the TV channel as well) is ready to be eliminated, soon after... in one way or another. After all, politics, everywhere, has to be run by rich men and their privileged servants :D
The problem with the rich man is the same problem with the man who wanted to bury his father that died---here they have Jesus Christ in front of them, in the flesh, but they are more concerned with other things.

I just want to say though that I am glad Christ is preached.
 

God's Truth

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No you don't.
You reject the truth every time it is presented to you. You need to pray to the Holy Spirit to open you up to hearing the truth because as of now you reject truth and repeat lies.

I was born and raised Catholic, it was my life. The Catholic religion taught it is the only true religion. When I was 24, my mom got cancer and when she was closer to death, my dad called for the priest to come and give her last rites; however, there was some kind of hold up and the priest didn't get there until almost two weeks later and by then my mom couldn't speak anymore. It was the first time and only time I ever saw my dad cry, for he blamed himself for her not getting to go to Jesus since she didn't give her last confession to a priest. I remember yelling, "But we are Catholics!". It hit me then that the Catholic denomination didn't know anything, they didn't know God and they didn't preach the truth. My mom's soul wasn't going to be dependent upon some priest and his phone assistant and his schedule and transportation or anything else he had as an excuse for not getting there sooner. That night I went in my room and said God, I don't want no religion's truth, no man's truth, I want Your Truth, God's Truth.

It took a lot of searching for many years, but God finally saved me and gave me His Truth.
 

KerimF

New member
The problem with the rich man is the same problem with the man who wanted to bury his father that died---here they have Jesus Christ in front of them, in the flesh, but they are more concerned with other things.
I just want to say though that I am glad Christ is preached.

Of course, every one is free to trust anyone in his life; rich, famous, in power (as Caesar) and perhaps an ordinary person.

On my side, I am glad that Jesus has opened my eyes about many natural truths to help me live far from any sort of confusion and fear (this was essential for me to live the unconditional love towards all others).

So when I hear a powerful rich person or a person privileged by the law of a ruling system (religious or civil), I know in advance that 'he has no right' to be sincere anytime he addresses the multitudes (why? this is another topic :) ). So, in this case, I always play the 'game of guessing', and try, as possible, to discover the hidden truths in his speech and stories, 'just for my own knowledge' and not to judge him in any way. After all, the way I am, I have no reason at all to disturb the peace of anyone who enjoys listing, with a great attention, to a certain master or one of his representatives.

By the way, when I was a student at a local university, I had the chance to talk with a Jewish colleague about life. I found him very proud for having some rich powerful Elders who try their best to guide/help him in what is good for him and his family. So he pitied me for being a powerless independent person who has not even one master on earth to guide, stand with and take care of him. Naturally, he and his family had to move to the New Israel as they were instructed by their Jewish Elders. This is one of my personal clear experiences which proved me that what could be seen as good or bad is always a personal matter. This is why you find me not arguing at all about one's belief (religious or political)... I just say, when I see necessary, what I have in mind about the subject in question.
 

God's Truth

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Of course, every one is free to trust anyone in his life; rich, famous, in power (as Caesar) and perhaps an ordinary person.

On my side, I am glad that Jesus has opened my eyes about many natural truths to help me live far from any sort of confusion and fear (this was essential for me to live the unconditional love towards all others).

So when I hear a powerful rich person or a person privileged by the law of a ruling system (religious or civil), I know in advance that 'he has no right' to be sincere anytime he addresses the multitudes (why? this is another topic :) ). So, in this case, I always play the 'game of guessing', and try, as possible, to discover the hidden truths in his speech and stories, 'just for my own knowledge' and not to judge him in any way. After all, the way I am, I have no reason at all to disturb the peace of anyone who enjoys listing, with a great attention, to a certain master or one of his representatives.

By the way, when I was a student at a local university, I had the chance to talk with a Jewish colleague about life. I found him very proud for having some rich powerful Elders who try their best to guide/help him in what is good for him and his family. So he pitied me for being a powerless independent person who has not even one master on earth to guide, stand with and take care of him. Naturally, he and his family had to move to the New Israel as they were instructed by their Jewish Elders. This is one of my personal clear experiences which proved me that what could be seen as good or bad is always a personal matter. This is why you find me not arguing at all about one's belief (religious or political)... I just say, when I see necessary, what I have in mind about the subject in question.

Many have argued that Christians should not debate and argue, but it is understandable from the scriptures that we can and should. Here are many scriptures about debating and arguing the truth:

Acts 9:29 He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Paul opposes Peter. See Galatians 2:11-21

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 1:13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
 

KerimF

New member
Many have argued that Christians should not debate and argue, but it is understandable from the scriptures that we can and should. Here are many scriptures about debating and arguing the truth:

In fact, the men in charge of any of today's religions in the world remind their subjects that they are not supposed to debate and/or argue.
Their pretext is that 'faith' cannot be based on logical reasoning.

On my side, I have no fear of any sort to answer any question (even personal) very sincerely (what I have in mind) unless I feel that I may hurt the other side by let him hearing a natural truth which he is not familiar to or he is not supposed to hear.

Jesus did never say: debate or argue. Jesus also used just answering questions and revealing natural truths to those who have ears... "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".

Even in science, I don't debate and argue. I just share, when possible, what I know from my studies and experiences (being a designer in electronics). The irony is that almost all engineers I knew couldn't take seriously what I had the chance to discover as novel practical solutions. They can't even imagine that an independent person who didn't work for any big company since graduation can discover something not know yet by the men in charge of Science :) Obviously, this didn't prevent me taking advantage of my simple reliable solutions in my personal projects while the world believes they don't/cannot exit.

I hope you got my point.
 

God's Truth

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In fact, the men in charge of any of today's religions in the world remind their subjects that they are not supposed to debate and/or argue.
They don't want you to find the truth.
They don't want anyone else to show you that you are wrong so they will be out of business.

Their pretext is that 'faith' cannot be based on logical reasoning.
We have to go by the Bible not teachings from men.

On my side, I have no fear of any sort to answer any question (even personal) very sincerely (what I have in mind) unless I feel that I may hurt the other side by let him hearing a natural truth which he is not familiar to or he is not supposed to hear.
The word of God says we have to tell the truth even if makes you the person's enemy. Don't you know the things Jesus says about division?

Jesus did never say: debate or argue. Jesus also used just answering questions and revealing natural truths to those who have ears... "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".

You don't know the truth very well.

When Jesus came to earth and had an earthly ministry, God had hardened some of the people so they couldn't understand.

Oh and unless you don't know, Paul speaks what Jesus wanted him to say.

Paul argued and debated.

Jude says to contend for the faith. To contend is to fight.
Even in science, I don't debate and argue. I just share, when possible, what I know from my studies and experiences (being a designer in electronics). The irony is that almost all engineers I knew couldn't take seriously what I had the chance to discover as novel practical solutions. They can't even imagine that an independent person who didn't work for any big company since graduation can discover something not know yet by the men in charge of Science :) Obviously, this didn't prevent me taking advantage of my simple reliable solutions in my personal projects while the world believes they don't/cannot exit.

I hope you got my point.

I think so. You don't go by the words of God you go by your own ideas?
 

KerimF

New member
You don't go by the words of God you go by your own ideas?

What choice one may have other than perceiving his Creator in himself or following how some others perceive their Creator?
The time I start believing and following what some others say while ignoring my own perception of my Creator, I, as Kerim, cease to exist, speaking practically.

So I wish you can follow always whatever you consider as being the words of God and, you will be rewarded as these words promise you.
On my side, I am content in being guided by God's Love (the Holy Spirit), I have accepted in me, and living the joy of God's Realm even while I am alive in the limited temporary physical realm.

In God's plan, I have no reason to be like you and you have no reason to be like me, because we are both happy the way we are... right? :) Sorry, if I assumed wrong and you are not happy the way you are :(




.
 

God's Truth

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What choice one may have other than perceiving his Creator in himself or following how some others perceive their Creator?
We are to do what the Bible says to do in order to become like Jesus.

The time I start believing and following what some others say while ignoring my own perception of my Creator, I, as Kerim, cease to exist, speaking practically.
Your perception is wrong if it doesn't line up with the Truth.

So I wish you can follow always whatever you consider as being the words of God and, you will be rewarded as these words promise you.
On my side, I am content in being guided by God's Love (the Holy Spirit), I have accepted in me, and living the joy of God's Realm even while I am alive in the limited temporary physical realm.

In God's plan, I have no reason to be like you and you have no reason to be like me, because we are both happy the way we are... right? :) Sorry, if I assumed wrong and you are not happy the way you are :(
.

I go by what the Bible says. The Bible tells us exactly how to become like Jesus.
 

KerimF

New member
We are to do what the Bible says to do in order to become like Jesus.
Your perception is wrong if it doesn't line up with the Truth.
I go by what the Bible says. The Bible tells us exactly how to become like Jesus.

I just live like Jesus did but without doing miracles, though the Holy Spirit let me witness its power several times when I had to face hard situations (some were real hard) and guided me as Jesus says:
"For the Holy Spirit/Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."
 

God's Truth

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I just live like Jesus did but without doing miracles, though the Holy Spirit let me witness its power several times when I had to face hard situations (some were real hard) and guided me as Jesus says:
"For the Holy Spirit/Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

That sounds good, KerimF.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
What choice one may have other than perceiving his Creator in himself or following how some others perceive their Creator?
The time I start believing and following what some others say while ignoring my own perception of my Creator, I, as Kerim, cease to exist, speaking practically.
So dramatic, like gt. No one says to ignore your own "perception" of God, but to become Catholic, you do have to discard any opinion of God that destructively conflicts with what the Church explains is incontrovertible Apostolic teaching, such as the Apostle's, or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene...opolitan_Creed

You're right that if you reject the Church's offer to convert, that you will continue, in your word, to "exist", as a Christian separated from perfect communion with the Body of Christ. Once you convert to Catholicism, you as you now exist, as imperfectly united with the Church, will, in your other word "cease" to exist.

You're a body part, perhaps you're an arm or a leg, but you're not rightly attached, not until you convert, and yes you're right and I agree with you, that if you convert to the Catholic faith, by submitting to Apostolic authority, which is the same as the Lord's own authority, that the part of you that constitutes your hanging appendage status quo, will cease to exist, and you will be received into the Church, becoming in fullness a perfectly united individual member of the Body of Christ.
 

KerimF

New member
So dramatic, like gt. No one says to ignore your own "perception" of God, but to become Catholic, you do have to discard any opinion of God that destructively conflicts with what the Church explains is incontrovertible Apostolic teaching, such as the Apostle's, or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

You're right that if you reject the Church's offer to convert, that you will continue, in your word, to "exist", as a Christian separated from perfect communion with the Body of Christ. Once you convert to Catholicism, you as you now exist, as imperfectly united with the Church, will, in your other word "cease" to exist.

You're a body part, perhaps you're an arm or a leg, but you're not rightly attached, not until you convert, and yes you're right and I agree with you, that if you convert to the Catholic faith, by submitting to Apostolic authority, which is the same as the Lord's own authority, that the part of you that constitutes your hanging appendage status quo, will cease to exist, and you will be received into the Church, becoming in fullness a perfectly united individual member of the Body of Christ.

Since English is my third language (after French and Arabic), I am sorry for not being able following your point very well.
But, it seems that the core/essence of what you liked telling me is related to 'Body of Christ'.
I wonder if I missed a saying of Jesus (not of anyone else) in which 'Body of Christ' is mentioned.
By the way, isn't this 'Body of Christ' of this world? I ask because, as you know, Jesus is not of this world :)

I also noticed you mentioned 'Apostolic authority, which is the same as the Lord's own authority'.
In my knowledge, Jesus doesn't say He represents an authority of any kind (similar to earthly ones which are based on imposed rules).
I understand that, by design, the material world should be run by authorities (ruling systems).
But, the spiritual realm (God's Realm) runs, since before Creation, by the Spirit of Love only which, based on its nature, cannot be imposed or commanded.
So to live like Jesus did I have to be independent (not belonging, by my own will, to any formal group/system) so I won't be a traitor every time I take care of someone who may be considered an enemy by those I belong to.
 

thborn

New member
To those who read my post #267 and don't mind being sincere here, I like asking the following question:

Do you know any Christian Church or Denomination whose men in charge are brave enough to preach openly 'all' Jesus Christ sayings exactly as He does on the today's Gospel?

I don't know of any big church that does that. There might be some that do, at times. I do know that there are some small, individual churches that do not have constant supervision from above or a bureaucratic system...and an advantage this is that there is nobody to stop the local community leader(s) from preaching radical Scriptural truth. At a small, very local Baptist Church I heard a sermon they played about Luke 14:26, another difficult passage for most...the explanation was that our love for Jesus and for God must be so great that our love for other people should appear like hate in comparison, and that we should have no earthly hopes and dreams other than the path God has prepared for us. Scripturally, this is not essential to being 'saved', but still a powerful truth. (The church as very small, but the audience in the online video seemed quite large.) I haven't heard such a message preached with as much clarity and force in the Roman Catholic Church (with which I have a history as an adult).

An ideal Christian community, IMO, whether in someone's home or in a public building or as part of a larger organization, would have a powerful message like that presented at every meeting. As well as time for silence and the Spirit, and some sense of ceremony or at least deep respect, with God truly at the center. But I do realize that that is something that will take many of us some time to find or to form. And that many people have been treated terribly by organized churches. It is not something, throughout history, that has not been very easy for people to find, although God's grace has not failed and there is only one true church, one bride of Christ, despite some lack of unity in the worldly sense. And I hope that, ultimately, history has been guided by God so that this Church will find a still more unified expression.

[4] "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
Here is also a taboo :) Jesus gave a solid proof that what is known as World's Peace can never exist. By design (the way God created the world), peace, even among the members of one family, can hardly exist though they likely share the same language, same culture and the same environment. So the lesson I got from this saying is: When I hear someone talking in public about the world peace, I can be sure that he is one of two: ignorant (lack of complete knowledge) of the world's reality or a clever deceiver trying to justify certain decisions and/or doings.

Agreed, world peace is not possible in this world, something many larger or liberal churches forget. But I think many true Believers will works for peace radically and passionately anyway, through God's grace, knowing it is not possible in this world.
 

KerimF

New member
I don't know of any big church that does that. There might be some that do, at times. I do know that there are some small, individual churches that do not have constant supervision from above or a bureaucratic system...and an advantage this is that there is nobody to stop the local community leader(s) from preaching radical Scriptural truth

This is why Jesus said:
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Jesus message of Love (to be lived on Earth as it is in Heaven) is addressed to independent individuals only while Judaism was address instead to a group of people whose last generation had to welcome Jesus Christ then crucify Him {Matthew 11:11}. In reality, True Unlimited Love/Trust is strictly a free-will personal matter. On the other hand, individuals in a well-defined well-organized group (religious or political) cannot live such Love, as revealed by Jesus, unless they accept to be possible traitors.

At a small, very local Baptist Church I heard a sermon they played about Luke 14:26, another difficult passage for most...the explanation was that our love for Jesus and for God must be so great that our love for other people should appear like hate in comparison, and that we should have no earthly hopes and dreams other than the path God has prepared for us. Scripturally, this is not essential to being 'saved', but still a powerful truth. (The church as very small, but the audience in the online video seemed quite large.) I haven't heard such a message preached with as much clarity and force in the Roman Catholic Church (with which I have a history as an adult).

{Luke 14:26}
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

To me in the least, the man-made word 'hate' means here 'deny' because this is what I did :)
As Jesus says, my family (supposed to be Christian... and Roman Catholic) has seen in me a weird/abnormal man because I live, as possible, like Jesus did (but without doing miracles of course :) ). In my turn, I simply denied, before my Father in Heaven and Jesus, whoever denied me before men.

An ideal Christian community, IMO, whether in someone's home or in a public building or as part of a larger organization, would have a powerful message like that presented at every meeting. As well as time for silence and the Spirit, and some sense of ceremony or at least deep respect, with God truly at the center. But I do realize that that is something that will take many of us some time to find or to form. And that many people have been treated terribly by organized churches. It is not something, throughout history, that has not been very easy for people to find, although God's grace has not failed and there is only one true church, one bride of Christ, despite some lack of unity in the worldly sense. And I hope that, ultimately, history has been guided by God so that this Church will find a still more unified expression.

No matter what may happen in the world... no one can change what Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

I personally didn't need any formal Church or preacher/minister/priest to discover that Jesus knew about me since 2000 years ago. And how couldn't I know Him, in my turn, while He agrees with me on whatever I was able discovering about my being and the world as it is? He even helped me find out the 'logical' answers of all my important questions about my existence and life in general. In other words, Jesus only was able to save me from my natural ignorance of the spiritual realm, God's Realm. By the way, this weakness, ignorance, with which every human baby has to be born was presented to our ancestors of the far past (kids of humanity), under the title 'Original Sin'.

Agreed, world peace is not possible in this world, something many larger or liberal churches forget. But I think many true Believers will works for peace radically and passionately anyway, through God's grace, knowing it is not possible in this world.

The only peace which could exist is in one's inner only.
By the way, my point on my previous post is that Jesus reminds me that whoever talks about world's peace is, at best, still ignorant, like little kids are, about the world's reality, or a very smart deceiver (surely a privileged one) who has to kill the souls (born of God's Spirit of Love) before sending his subjects to die or be injured badly while they play the heroes in serving his claimed world's peace (in the name of a god or else).

"And fear not them (troops/mercenaries/criminals) which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him (the privileged deceiver) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Yes, I have no reason to fear My Father in Heaven or Jesus who let me born of the Spirit of Love. But I fear being fooled someday by a great speech of a very smart deceiver, religious or political :)
 

God's Truth

BANNED
So dramatic, like gt.
Well that was a pot shot.

No one says to ignore your own "perception" of God, but to become Catholic, you do have to discard any opinion of God that destructively conflicts with what the Church explains is incontrovertible Apostolic teaching, such as the Apostle's, or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
How about the Truth that there is no Apostolic Succession or Creeds in the Bible?

We are to obey God rather than men. We nullify God with tradition of men.

You're right that if you reject the Church's offer to convert, that you will continue, in your word, to "exist", as a Christian separated from perfect communion with the Body of Christ.

The Catholic church teaches things against God and they have no idea what the body of Christ is. Just think, they call the Catholic church the church that the gates of hell can't prevail against. The TRUTH is Jesus is the one who went to hell and the gates of hell could not keep him there.

The Catholic church keeps people from knowing God and I believe it is a haunt for demons. No wonder those involved with the Catholic church are superstitious and have OCD type of illnesses.

Once you convert to Catholicism, you as you now exist, as imperfectly united with the Church, will, in your other word "cease" to exist.
What kind of teaching is that? Where does Jesus say we cease to exist?
You're a body part, perhaps you're an arm or a leg, but you're not rightly attached, not until you convert, and yes you're right and I agree with you, that if you convert to the Catholic faith, by submitting to Apostolic authority, which is the same as the Lord's own authority, that the part of you that constitutes your hanging appendage status quo, will cease to exist, and you will be received into the Church, becoming in fullness a perfectly united individual member of the Body of Christ.

That is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
No one says to ignore your own "perception" of God, but to become Catholic, you do have to discard any opinion of God that destructively conflicts with what the Church explains is incontrovertible Apostolic teaching, such as the Apostle's, or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

In other word, one must agree with what the Church and/or some creed says.

I'd rather just agree with what the Bible says.

Much safer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene...opolitan_Creed

You're right that if you reject the Church's offer to convert, that you will continue, in your word, to "exist", as a Christian separated from perfect communion with the Body of Christ. Once you convert to Catholicism, you as you now exist, as imperfectly united with the Church, will, in your other word "cease" to exist.

Well that's certainly how the Catholic church sees it.

But the Paul says we should imitate Paul, as he imitates Christ.

He says nothing about converting to a church's beliefs.

You're a body part, perhaps you're an arm or a leg, but you're not rightly attached, not until you convert,

Read: "If you don't agree with the church, you're doing it wrong"

:think:

. . . if you convert to the Catholic faith, . . .you will be received into the Church, becoming in fullness a perfectly united individual member of the Body of Christ.

Sorry, but that's not how it works.

You've been lied to, Idolater.

One is made a member of the Body of Christ the moment he places his trust in Christ.

As Paul says in Galatians 2:20:

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Is not Christ "perfectly united" with his own body? Or do you think that one must do something so that Christ fits in just perfectly, because we weren't correctly united with Him when we placed our trust in Him?
 

thborn

New member
This is why Jesus said:
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Jesus message of Love (to be lived on Earth as it is in Heaven) is addressed to independent individuals only while Judaism was address instead to a group of people whose last generation had to welcome Jesus Christ then crucify Him {Matthew 11:11}. In reality, True Unlimited Love/Trust is strictly a free-will personal matter. On the other hand, individuals in a well-defined well-organized group (religious or political) cannot live such Love, as revealed by Jesus, unless they accept to be possible traitors.



{Luke 14:26}
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

To me in the least, the man-made word 'hate' means here 'deny' because this is what I did :)
As Jesus says, my family (supposed to be Christian... and Roman Catholic) has seen in me a weird/abnormal man because I live, as possible, like Jesus did (but without doing miracles of course :) ). In my turn, I simply denied, before my Father in Heaven and Jesus, whoever denied me before men.



No matter what may happen in the world... no one can change what Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

I personally didn't need any formal Church or preacher/minister/priest to discover that Jesus knew about me since 2000 years ago. And how couldn't I know Him, in my turn, while He agrees with me on whatever I was able discovering about my being and the world as it is? He even helped me find out the 'logical' answers of all my important questions about my existence and life in general. In other words, Jesus only was able to save me from my natural ignorance of the spiritual realm, God's Realm. By the way, this weakness, ignorance, with which every human baby has to be born was presented to our ancestors of the far past (kids of humanity), under the title 'Original Sin'.



The only peace which could exist is in one's inner only.
By the way, my point on my previous post is that Jesus reminds me that whoever talks about world's peace is, at best, still ignorant, like little kids are, about the world's reality, or a very smart deceiver (surely a privileged one) who has to kill the souls (born of God's Spirit of Love) before sending his subjects to die or be injured badly while they play the heroes in serving his claimed world's peace (in the name of a god or else).

"And fear not them (troops/mercenaries/criminals) which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him (the privileged deceiver) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Yes, I have no reason to fear My Father in Heaven or Jesus who let me born of the Spirit of Love. But I fear being fooled someday by a great speech of a very smart deceiver, religious or political :)

I think you are right that knowing God's love is an individual thing, and any large group of people is going to contain some who are not true Believers. (I am often happiest hanging out by myself or with a dog or pet parrot.) But Christians ate and prayed together in Scripture. What size should such groups be? Should they be limited to people who only know each other really well?

About peace, I meant that a Christian could meaningly try to resolve small conflicts (within a family, or community) and sometimes show Christ's love and thus witness to Christ be alleviating suffering in a few lives when it comes to larger conflicts.
 

KerimF

New member
But Christians ate and prayed together in Scripture. What size should such groups be? Should they be limited to people who only know each other really well?

It is not about size.
It is about the structure of the group if it is defined by certain rules and regulations... or by ordinary persons and each of them looks to be last of all and servant of all:
"If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all."

About peace, I meant that a Christian could meaningly try to resolve small conflicts (within a family, or community) and sometimes show Christ's love and thus witness to Christ be alleviating suffering in a few lives when it comes to larger conflicts.

You are totally right. And, by doing this, one can have a real inner peace, besides a continuous inner joy which is not limited by time or place.

On the other hand, world's peace is, at best, a fiction :) Jesus was just revealing {Matthew 10:34} a natural truth that, the way the world is created, world's peace can never be achieved since it is hard to be achieved even among the members of a family.
 
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