ECT Open Theism debate

patrick jane

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My main problem with Calvinism is that we can't believe unless God chose us before creation while not choosing so many others. I am not so attached to having my own autonomous free will that I can't believe that God worked in me, opening my heart to receive Jesus Christ and believe before I could do it on my own.

What of a person that lives a better life than me and hasn't sinned as much as me, yet does not believe? I know unbelief is a sin and I've seen it said that unbelief is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is unforgivable. Why would God not allow some to believe when Christ died for all?
 
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Derf

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Debate #1:
I was thinking Slick Matty was winning before the closing arguments--and I rarely get carried away by closing arguments. I didn't think the mormon allusions were helpful to his argument, nor the little "I'll explain all this to you later when I really teach you how to read the bible" comments. Duffy had some amazing (amazingly bad, imo) statements about what God can and can't do.

I agree with AMR's assessment about the concession of the timelessness of God, but I'm not sure exactly what Slick was willing to concede on it. It would be interesting to see his edits to his article(s).

The one questioner asked about what law is imposed on God. It's an interesting topic, and I've been wondering what "sin" means for God. I can't think of anything except lying that would be sin for God. Obviously stealing and murdering and showing disrespect for those in authority are impossible for God. Even adultery, which is essentially going back on a vow, is not really more than lying.

Thus, "sin" for God is not doing what He said He would do. That might mean "repenting" in some cases. But those passages where God "repents", it is based on the higher things that He said, i.e., if He sent a message to nation that they would be destroyed, and then they weren't, it was because they stopped doing what He was going to destroy them for.

Haven't listened to #2 yet.
 

JudgeRightly

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I think my favorite part of either debate was when Matt was asked if Adam and Eve could have chosen not to sin...

And then Matt said yes...

And then someone (Will, I believe) said "congratulations, you must proved open theism," and everyone started laughing and clapping.

That was hilarious.
 

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My main problem with Calvinism is that we can't believe unless God chose us before creation while not choosing so many others. I am not so attached to having my own autonomous free will that I can't believe that God worked in me, opening my heart to receive Jesus Christ and believe before I could do it on my own.

What of a person that lives a better life than me and hasn't sinned as much as me, yet does not believe? I know unbelief is a sin and I've seen it said that unbelief is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is unforgivable. Why would God not allow some to believe when Christ died for all?

Well, as to that last bit, I would answer that if Our Lord died for all, then all would be saved. I do not think of the atonement as something potential. I believe it was an actual atonement for the very word implies the wrath of God is propitiated for the atoning offering on the cross that was made. The offering had to be for a precise number, else all are atoned and thus there is no righteous Godly wrath towards anyone. We know this is not the case from Scripture. But, this is the topic of dozens of threads, so I will refrain from derailing this one by saying more.

As to the other aspects of your post, thinking about merit usually gets one into these waters. What one does or does not do played no part in the decree of God to elect a multitude no man can number and leave the rest in their state of sin after the fall of Adam. God did not peek ahead, see who would do what, and then rubber-stamp their wise decisions, declaring them elect, chosen. God is not a debtor to man, nor a contingent being.

God's choosing (to elect some, leave others) incorporates the will of those chosen. God's decree formed all creation. That decree included all the physical properties at work that we discover in science, biology, etc. That decree included the establishment of the liberty of the will (the mind choosing) of mankind. That liberty of the will means that we are self-determined, that is, we choose according to our greatest inclinations when we so choose. God created the free will we are all claiming, yet not fully understanding.

So, when we say God predestined in His decree, we are saying something along the lines, "PJ, of his own liberty of spontaneity, with no violence done to his will by me, God, will do this or that at some specific time and date."

Once decreed, that becomes genuine knowledge to God, what we call foreknowledge. More here.

Man did not sin because God foresaw him; but God foresaw him to sin, because man would sin. If Adam and other men would have acted otherwise, God would have foreknown that they would have acted well. God foresaw our actions because they would so come to pass by the motion of our free-will, which God would establish and permit, which God would concur with, which God would order to His own holy and glorious ends for the manifestation of the perfection of His nature.

Which is to say, that God knows something is because He volitionally willed it to be so. That God knows this does not mean God is the direct cause of what you will do on that date and time. Yes, God is the antecedent cause, the First Cause, of all things. After all, He caused all that exists. Yet, God is not the proximate cause of what you will do...you are that proximate cause. You are the moral agent that does moral acts and you are held to account for these acts by God.

The decree of God is worth a deeper look because not a few are confused about what that means. For example, in the debate Matt Slick was reminded that at his site, CARM.org, he called the decree "an order". This is a terribly imprecise and easily leads to error, as the discussion in the debate gave evidence. Matt Slick was simply not well studied on the matter of what the decree actually entails, especially since the vital point concerning the decree is that God's decree incorporates the means by which what is decreed is to be actualized.

Below is a more thorough explanation of the decree of God:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Mr-Religion&p=2251901&viewfull=1#post2251901

Yes, my post at that link is somewhat lengthy, but it is precisely so to avoid the pitfalls that were evident on both sides in the debates last week.

Unfortunately, discussion of the decree leads many to frustration and to making attempts to explain exactly how God pulls off this business of being wholly sovereign and holding mankind accountable. No explanation is offered in Scripture. When God shuts His mouth, we are well advised to do the same (Deut. 29:29). Instead, I am happy to rest satisfied that since God merely spoke and the universe appeared, that He is able to govern all things while rightfully holding his moral creatures accountable. I suspect that even in our glory we will not know the answer, nor will we care.

Nevertheless, some, perhaps with good intentions, seek to cobble together some explanations of the how, hoping to let God off the hook, as it were, for evil, sin, suffering, etc. Enter open theism.

Per the open theist, God, existing in time, does not know the future for it does not exist. God does not know what His moral creatures will do until they do it. God sometimes even has to actually show up on the scene to see what is going on, then He knows some new facts. God learns from the acts of His moral creatures and continually adjusts His strategies to bring about His ends. In effect, God is a master chess player, predicting with high degrees of probability what folks will do.

AMR
 

Derf

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Christ however, is intrinsically unable to sin. Satan approaches to tempt but has nothing in Him (John 14:30).
I know that verse was not the only one you used (though the others were no stronger, imo), but the fact that Satan had "nothing" in Jesus doesn't seem to mean that it was impossible for Jesus to sin, but only that he hadn't sinned (and maybe didn't expect to). Did Satan have anything in Adam before he sinned? If so, what was it? After Adam sinned, Satan surely had "something" in Adam--Adam had followed after him instead of God.
 

Derf

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Another thought on Debate #1...

It seems Matt was only interesting in the extremes when it came to the influence on a person's decision. In other words, of course a decision is influenced by numerous things, but that doesn't mean that there is no influence from the person that is making the choice.

Such "all or nothing" dichotomies are not helpful in a discussion.

For instance:
If someone invited me to have an apple to eat, I would be influenced first of all by the offer, and then by other factors--whether I was hungry, whether the apple was full of worms, whether I was on a fast, or whatever.

In the end, I make the choice to eat the apple, after weighing all the factors I can think of and maybe some subconscious ones as well. It may be that we only make the choice according to the strongest influence, as some say, but such is a fatalistic concept, and Matt correctly, I think, tried to distance himself and Calvinism from fatalism.
 

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I know that verse was not the only one you used (though the others were no stronger, imo), but the fact that Satan had "nothing" in Jesus doesn't seem to mean that it was impossible for Jesus to sin, but only that he hadn't sinned (and maybe didn't expect to). Did Satan have anything in Adam before he sinned? If so, what was it? After Adam sinned, Satan surely had "something" in Adam--Adam had followed after him instead of God.
Adam was made upright, but mutable.
Our incarnated Lord, fully divine nature, fully human nature, is a very different matter. :AMR:

We know Jesus Christ was not able to sin from:
1. God's eternal decree that he would sinlessly redeem a sinful people;
2. The personal union of the God the Son to a complete human nature;
3. The abundant fullness of the Holy Spirit in the life of Christ; and
4. The wholehearted consecration of the Son.

It's on point #2 that intrinsic, absolute impeccability is established, and so the lines of conflict are usually drawn on this point.

Because the acts of either nature (human or divine) are acts of the one Person (natures are, persons act), to say that Jesus Christ could have sinned is to say that God the Son could have sinned; and that's inherently absurd. If you could somehow isolate the human nature from the person you could say that it was peccable; but that's an abstraction for the case of argument, because the human nature assumed was anhypostatic and never existed outside of union with God the Son. There never was "Christ's human nature" apart from Christ, who is God the Son.

See:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/anhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-jesus-take

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/enhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-the-word-become


AMR
 

Derf

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I think my favorite part of either debate was when Matt was asked if Adam and Eve could have chosen not to sin...

And then Matt said yes...

And then someone (Will, I believe) said "congratulations, you [j]ust proved open theism," and everyone started laughing and clapping.

That was hilarious.

I have a different take on that. Though I'm pretty comfortable with Open Theism in its raw form (not so much with the extrapolations some have made), I tend to think that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin (or at least Adam), for God's plan for humanity to play out correctly. Thus if it was necessary for God's plan, it couldn't NOT have happened. However, I will allow that God provided plenty of time for it to happen, and allowed Satan to do his dirty work of tempting. And it wasn't that particular event (the one in Gen 3) that was necessary, but an eventual event of sin. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if they had not fallen right away. Would God have just continued bringing to them different types of temptations (is that heretical?) until they bit? Or maybe even provided different scenarios (like, maybe some "bread" of life and "bread" of the knowledge of good and evil?? Or a "river" of life and a "river" of the knowledge of good and evil??) eventually.
 

Derf

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Adam was made upright, but mutable.
Our incarnated Lord, fully divine nature, fully human nature, is a very different matter. :AMR:

We know Jesus Christ was not able to sin from:
1. God's eternal decree that he would sinlessly redeem a sinful people;
2. The personal union of the God the Son to a complete human nature;
3. The abundant fullness of the Holy Spirit in the life of Christ; and
4. The wholehearted consecration of the Son.

It's on point #2 that intrinsic, absolute impeccability is established, and so the lines of conflict are usually drawn on this point.

Because the acts of either nature (human or divine) are acts of the one Person (natures are, persons act), to say that Jesus Christ could have sinned is to say that God the Son could have sinned; and that's inherently absurd. If you could somehow isolate the human nature from the person you could say that it was peccable; but that's an abstraction for the case of argument, because the human nature assumed was anhypostatic and never existed outside of union with God the Son. There never was "Christ's human nature" apart from Christ, who is God the Son.

Well, #1 was soundly refuted by Slick's insistence on a what-is-was-decreed mentality. Maybe you don't buy that (I don't think it reflects Calvinism, personally), but just thought I'd throw it out there.

Re #4, are you talking about the Son consecrating Himself, or God consecrating the Son? If the latter, is the "wholehearted" part intended to help it to rise above the other consecrations of people by God, where they do sin? Were those consecrations NOT wholehearted enough by God, Num 3:3-4? If the former, the "wholeheartedness" was the thing being tested, rather than the thing that assured success in the testing.

Both of these seem to be carts before horses.

#2 and #3 are the same thing, aren't they? And I agree it's an important thing.

If not the same thing, then what you are saying with #3 (if it stands alone) is that Jesus could have sinned if the Holy Spirit were not infilling Him. Fair enough, but that should be unnecessary if #2 is as you say.

That leaves #2 standing alone, as you intimated. And it's hard to think of a definition of the union of God the Son with the Son of man that really tells us what it is. Your articles are cases in point.

(Is David Matthis Shawn's brother? Shawn was in our Presbytery.)

Are those two articles arguing against each other, or are they just repeating the same question--how can God have two natures?

You have to watch out for all this theology stuff--you end up talking in circles on everything.

But if we have the definition wrong, since we came up with all this an- and en-hypostasis terminology, maybe Christ could sin.

However, if Christ could never sin, and God knew it, what was the whole point of the test (His life was the test)? Who was the test for? If God needed to prove to Satan that He could make a human that could never fall, well, that elevates Satan to some position of authority over God. If God needed to provide a test for Himself, well, that demeans God's foreknowledge. If Jesus needed some assurance of Himself, His omniscience is in question.

Was it a test for us? Then we get into the idea that Jesus' life and death were about an example for us to follow, rather than a sacrifice for sin. But without the Holy Spirit's full cooperation, we're presented with the impossibility of following that example, thus making the example useless.

But if Jesus could sin (using whatever definition of the union of the two natures will allow it), it shows that He could defeat death--death that was a real and serious concern for Him somehow--by 1. not earning for Himself, and 2. by not staying dead once He died for someone else.
 

glorydaz

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Jesus is one Person. That person cannot sin, because divinity is sinless, and Jesus has a divine nature. Nor is it proper to say that Jesus "might have been able to sin in his human nature," because persons Will (or Act); natures Are.

Two wills implies two natures. Again, Persons ACT. Natures ARE. There is nothing strange about two wills acting in harmony. Your will and my will can be two wills acting in harmony. If your will is subservient to my will, or is guided by my will, that doesn't make it any less your will. The unique thing about Jesus is that it was one Person having two wills, each according to its nature: one human, the other divine.


AMR

I'm thinking of starting a thread on the Humanity of Jesus Christ.

Could I borrow this quote for my OP?
 

Danoh

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Temptation implies possibility of sin in general (humans) but not in specific (Christ). For instance, the testing of gold implies the possibility of things not being gold in general, but not the possibility of pure gold not being pure gold. The end of testing gold is to distinguish true gold from false gold. Thus, Christ's not falling in sin proves He could not sin. Since, Jesus is God and sin is rebellion against God, Jesus could not sin, for it is impossible for Him to rebel against Himself, unless His omniscience and omnipotence were brought into question. Thus, being human, He was tempted, but being divine and undivided in His moral nature, He was essentially holy and so could not sin.

Jesus is one Person. That person cannot sin, because divinity is sinless, and Jesus has a divine nature. Nor is it proper to say that Jesus "might have been able to sin in his human nature," because persons Will (or Act); natures Are.

Two wills implies two natures. Again, Persons ACT. Natures ARE. There is nothing strange about two wills acting in harmony. Your will and my will can be two wills acting in harmony. If your will is subservient to my will, or is guided by my will, that doesn't make it any less your will. The unique thing about Jesus is that it was one Person having two wills, each according to its nature: one human, the other divine.

For a temptation to be "real" it should be sufficient that it has an apparent advantage or attraction. So, for example, Satan suggests to Jesus the opportunity to "inherit the world" but in a way that avoids the very real agonies of the cross. How could this not have obvious attraction? In other words, how could this not be an actual temptation?

If it be objected that Jesus knew there was a better (best) option available by obedience to God, therefore no other options held any attraction, I respond that this view does not give due weight to the full human nature possessed by Jesus. The same objection could have been raised to Adam's sin. The same objection can be raised to the Christian's sin today. And even (to a much less degree) to the unregenerate in those cases where the "right" thing is plain and obvious, but people still choose the sinful option over one better.

No one who falls to temptation ever knows its "full" weight. Only those people who successfully resist a temptation know that temptation's full power. For they have exhausted its strength, and resisted. Jesus NEVER lost a battle.

As the many discussions of hypotheticals in the debates showed, you have to define impossibility as relates to Jesus and temptation. But here's the simple fact. It was decretally impossible for Christ to sin, for God had from all eternity decreed that He would not sin. The fact that Jesus did not sin establishes the preceding decree that He would not sin.

So questions about the intrinsic peccability or impeccability of Christ's human nature are all firmly committed into the realm of the theoretical. While they can be discussed in that realm, I think it should be kept in mind that it is only as a counterfactual hypothetical that they even arise; not only because Christ did never actually sin, but also because it was infallibly foreordained that He never would.

If we may aver that the elect angels will never sin, as did those who did not keep their first estate, and thus they are by God's decree unable to sin, we must further observe that their inability to sin is not intrinsic. It is God who sovereignly keeps them.

Christ however, is intrinsically unable to sin. Satan approaches to tempt but has nothing in Him (John 14:30). The Man Christ Jesus not only came forth from the womb sinless but He came forth from the womb as the Theanthropos. Jesus, the Person, having both divine and human natures, cannot personally sin.

Even the redeemed in glory will then be non posse peccare, will be so not by intrinsic power but by the will and power of God. With the God-man it is otherwise. He is self constitutionally unable to sin; He is God.

AMR

Hope all is well with you AMR.

Your post there reminds me of that Scorsese movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" - in which, while dying on the cross, he is tempted to fantasize on what his life might have been like instead, had he married and so on...

As I recall, the Christian community in general was quite appalled by that bit of blasphemy - remember that uproar?

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
 

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Well, #1 was soundly refuted by Slick's insistence on a what-is-was-decreed mentality.
Heh. That is one way it will be spinned. I won't speak for Mr. Slick. On the other hand, I have provided ample written materials that are available for review on the matter of the decree.

You have to watch out for all this theology stuff--you end up talking in circles on everything.

Says the person actually doing all this theology stuff. As soon as someone starts writing or speaking about matters of the faith they are doing theology. Hence, everyone is a theologian of a sort, else they simply do not understand the meaning of the word. If we all are theologians, then how about we do our very best to be good theologians?

The two links in my post discuss what was assumed in the incarnation and what resulted from that assumption.

According to the enhypostatic part of the distinction, it is the Son who personalizes or hypostatizes the human nature that the Son assumes. In the act of becoming incarnate, the Son takes up the human nature into His subsistence, such that the human nature does not itself become a person but instead is united in a personal union to the Word, who is the personal subject of the incarnation. There never was a time at which the human nature of Christ existed independently of its assumption by the Word.

The other side of this distinction says that Christ’s human nature is anhypostatic, which means that the human nature of Christ has no independent existence apart from the hypostasis of the Word. That is to say, despite the fact that the assumed human nature had the same properties that would typically be needed to instantiate a human person, such personhood is not possible as a result of the nature’s being assumed by the Word. The human nature was destitute of proper personhood, was without subsistence [anypostatos], else otherwise it would have been a person, making the incarnation one of two persons, two natures.

In sum, then, the simple (God has no constituent parts) divine person of the Son assumes a human nature that is personalized in its subsistence with the Son and that human nature had no personhood apart from that assumption.

Understand these matters aright, and much error will be avoided:

Spoiler

Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

One can best understand this mystical union (together united in one distinguishable subsistence) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The mystical union of the divine and human natures of Our Lord is not:

1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).


Attempts to individuate the human nature leads to much of the error in your rationale, leading to all manner of "person" confusion. One Person, two natures. Don't mix, separate, divide, or confuse these two natures. It also leads to the nonsense of some that think while our Lord was in the cradle or walking the earth, God the Son was not upholding the universe because the Second Person of the Trinity was geographically confined to Israel. Further, these errors lead not a few to think that Jesus Christ's glorified body in heaven is omnipresent. Enter the Lutherans and their doctrine of the Supper, or the Romanists that summon the body of Christ to earth at the ringing of a bell simultaneously happening around the world.

AMR
 

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Hope all is well with you AMR.

Your post there reminds me of that Scorsese movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" - in which, while dying on the cross, he is tempted to fantasize on what his life might have been like instead, had he married and so on...

As I recall, the Christian community in general was quite appalled by that bit of blasphemy - remember that uproar?

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
I do from the press about the matter. I avoided the movie given the blatant second commandment violations therein.

AMR
 

Nihilo

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Enter the Lutherans and their doctrine of the Supper, or the Romanists that summon the body of Christ to earth at the ringing of a bell simultaneously happening around the world.
The Apostles' influence on the Church was strongest early on, and non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians today try to be influenced by the Apostles only through their scriptures, and disregard their more direct, evangelistic, teaching, and administrative influence, that they had upon the Church. Matthew 28:19-20 KJV Luke 24:46-47 KJV The Apostles did that. The composition of the New Testament was part of their work in carrying out Matthew 28:19-20 KJV and Luke 24:46-47 KJV, but they administrated the Church also, as bishops, ordaining other bishops, who were not Apostles, but who succeeded the Apostles as overseers, or elders, or bishops, or senior pastors, of the Church. The bishops, including ten Apostles, convened a Church council, which was recorded in Acts, and was the model for all subsequent Church councils, up to and including the second Vatican council, in the 1960s, when thousands of Church bishops (all of them, like the first Church council recorded in Acts, the Jerusalem council) met together.
 

Nihilo

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Hope all is well with you AMR.

Your post there reminds me of that Scorsese movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" - in which, while dying on the cross, he is tempted to fantasize on what his life might have been like instead, had he married and so on...

As I recall, the Christian community in general was quite appalled by that bit of blasphemy - remember that uproar?

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
I didn't see the movie. What was his take on the Resurrection (Easter morning)? Historical, or fictional?
 

Danoh

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I didn't see the movie. What was his take on the Resurrection (Easter morning)? Historical, or fictional?

From what I recall, the movie ends with his deciding not to give in to the devil, just before he dies.

The whole thing was basically Scorsese's well known inner conflict with the profound sense of guilt ever haunting him, instilled in him as a child by various RCC "mentors."

The fool projected that into his depiction of a "Christ" who throughout the entire movie goes around plagued by his own inner civil war between following one voice in his head ever urging him to follow god, and another voice in his head equally ever urging him to forget all that and just get on with the business of leading a normal life.

I found the whole thing absolute garbage - even his famous movie making pal, De Niro, turned that fool role down.

Perhaps they should have resurrected the late comedian, Flip "The Devil made me do it!" Wilson, to play that fool role.

But anyway, AMR's post against the assertion that Christ could have sinned had He wanted to, reminded me of that Scorsese movie.
 
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glorydaz

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Heh.
Spoiler
That is one way it will be spinned. I won't speak for Mr. Slick. On the other hand, I have provided ample written materials that are available for review on the matter of the decree.



Says the person actually doing all this theology stuff. As soon as someone starts writing or speaking about matters of the faith they are doing theology. Hence, everyone is a theologian of a sort, else they simply do not understand the meaning of the word. If we all are theologians, then how about we do our very best to be good theologians?

The two links in my post discuss what was assumed in the incarnation and what resulted from that assumption.

According to the enhypostatic part of the distinction, it is the Son who personalizes or hypostatizes the human nature that the Son assumes. In the act of becoming incarnate, the Son takes up the human nature into His subsistence, such that the human nature does not itself become a person but instead is united in a personal union to the Word, who is the personal subject of the incarnation. There never was a time at which the human nature of Christ existed independently of its assumption by the Word.

The other side of this distinction says that Christ’s human nature is anhypostatic, which means that the human nature of Christ has no independent existence apart from the hypostasis of the Word. That is to say, despite the fact that the assumed human nature had the same properties that would typically be needed to instantiate a human person, such personhood is not possible as a result of the nature’s being assumed by the Word. The human nature was destitute of proper personhood, was without subsistence [anypostatos], else otherwise it would have been a person, making the incarnation one of two persons, two natures.

In sum, then, the simple (God has no constituent parts) divine person of the Son assumes a human nature that is personalized in its subsistence with the Son and that human nature had no personhood apart from that assumption.

Understand these matters aright, and much error will be avoided:

Spoiler

Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

One can best understand this mystical union (together united in one distinguishable subsistence) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The mystical union of the divine and human natures of Our Lord is not:

1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).


Attempts to individuate the human nature leads to much of the error in your rationale, leading to all manner of "person" confusion. One Person, two natures. Don't mix, separate, divide, or confuse these two natures. It also leads to the nonsense of some that think while our Lord was in the cradle or walking the earth, God the Son was not upholding the universe because the Second Person of the Trinity was geographically confined to Israel. Further, these errors lead not a few to think that Jesus Christ's glorified body in heaven is omnipresent. Enter the Lutherans and their doctrine of the Supper, or the Romanists that summon the body of Christ to earth at the ringing of a bell simultaneously happening around the world.


3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);

AMR

Ah, as to the above. I realize some believe man is bipartite (body, soul/spirit- I'm assuming), and others of us think he is tripartite (with body, soul, and spirit). 1 Thessalonians 5:23


You mention that our Lord had a genuine human soul. Wouldn't you think that includes His having a genuine human spirit?

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​
 

Derf

Well-known member
Heh. That is one way it will be spinned. I won't speak for Mr. Slick. On the other hand, I have provided ample written materials that are available for review on the matter of the decree.



Says the person actually doing all this theology stuff. As soon as someone starts writing or speaking about matters of the faith they are doing theology. Hence, everyone is a theologian of a sort, else they simply do not understand the meaning of the word. If we all are theologians, then how about we do our very best to be good theologians?
Agreed. :cheers:

The two links in my post discuss what was assumed in the incarnation and what resulted from that assumption.

According to the enhypostatic part of the distinction, it is the Son who personalizes or hypostatizes the human nature that the Son assumes. In the act of becoming incarnate, the Son takes up the human nature into His subsistence, such that the human nature does not itself become a person but instead is united in a personal union to the Word, who is the personal subject of the incarnation. There never was a time at which the human nature of Christ existed independently of its assumption by the Word.

The other side of this distinction says that Christ’s human nature is anhypostatic, which means that the human nature of Christ has no independent existence apart from the hypostasis of the Word. That is to say, despite the fact that the assumed human nature had the same properties that would typically be needed to instantiate a human person, such personhood is not possible as a result of the nature’s being assumed by the Word. The human nature was destitute of proper personhood, was without subsistence [anypostatos], else otherwise it would have been a person, making the incarnation one of two persons, two natures.

In sum, then, the simple (God has no constituent parts) divine person of the Son assumes a human nature that is personalized in its subsistence with the Son and that human nature had no personhood apart from that assumption.
I'm not trying to suggest any of it is wrong, either. I'm trying to grasp how Jesus, knowing this, could be so grieved about the coming trial that His will was that He not go through it, which was in opposition to God's (and His own, supposedly, as God the Son's will would never be in opposition to God the Father's). Whether the result was predetermined in some way or not is hardly enough evidence to counteract the scripture that says the wills conflicted.

And if the Son of God had a separate human will from His divine will, what does that mean? Can a single person have 2 wills, even if just for a second

Understand these matters aright, and much error will be avoided:

Spoiler

Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

One can best understand this mystical union (together united in one distinguishable subsistence) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The mystical union of the divine and human natures of Our Lord is not:

1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).


Attempts to individuate the human nature leads to much of the error in your rationale, leading to all manner of "person" confusion. One Person, two natures. Don't mix, separate, divide, or confuse these two natures. It also leads to the nonsense of some that think while our Lord was in the cradle or walking the earth, God the Son was not upholding the universe because the Second Person of the Trinity was geographically confined to Israel. Further, these errors lead not a few to think that Jesus Christ's glorified body in heaven is omnipresent. Enter the Lutherans and their doctrine of the Supper, or the Romanists that summon the body of Christ to earth at the ringing of a bell simultaneously happening around the world.

AMR
Good points, all.

But if the 2nd person of the Trinity was upholding the universe even through the crucifixion and death, did the Father ever really forsake the Son in any way? Was Jesus wrong to ask why He did (potentially giving us an impression of a incorrect view of how things are), or was it a figure of speech?
 
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