On the omniscience of God

[Clete]

I agree that we disagree. I believe that you don’t recognize that the Spirit of God is immutable-all seeing-all knowing ,

No, I don't believe any of that but not for the incoherent reason you suggest. I believe what I believe because I take the bible to be literally true. I understand that God changes in important and dramatic and permanent ways because I don't turn any passages that explicitly teaches otherwise into allegory and figures of speech.

because that you don’t separate that while Jesus walked the earth the Spirit of God who is immutable was in heaven unchanging- eternal - no shadows-no turning from eternity past to eternity future.

I've already refuted that argument, Leatherneck. Not only that but I spent the time to go into some detail in direct answer to your questions and you blow it all off with this two sentence repetition of stuff I refuted several posts ago, which you also ignored!

Did you show up here with the intention of wasting everyone's time? Is that what you think makes sites like this fun?

You don't have to be persuaded but if you have no answer to my arguments you might at least acknowledge that the arguments have given you something to think about instead of just sticking your head in the sand and pretending like I've said nothing at all. Or, if you see the arguments veracity and choose not to be persuaded then just admit that you don't care whether your doctrine is coherent and that you're going to believe what you believe no matter what anyone might say. That at least would be honest! But then again, why would I expect intellectual honesty from someone who repeatedly claims to have independently discovered immutability within the bible.

I swear I must just simply be a glutton for punishment!

This website is flat out 1000% a waste of time! What the hell am I doing here!

 

[Leatherneck]

No, I don't believe any of that but not for the incoherent reason you suggest. I believe what I believe because I take the bible to be literally true. I understand that God changes in important and dramatic and permanent ways because I don't turn any passages that explicitly teaches otherwise into allegory and figures of speech.


I've already refuted that argument, Leatherneck. Not only that but I spent the time to go into some detail in direct answer to your questions and you blow it all off with this two sentence repetition of stuff I refuted several posts ago, which you also ignored!

Did you show up here with the intention of wasting everyone's time? Is that what you think makes sites like this fun?

You don't have to be persuaded but if you have no answer to my arguments you might at least acknowledge that the arguments have given you something to think about instead of just sticking your head in the sand and pretending like I've said nothing at all. Or, if you see the arguments veracity and choose not to be persuaded then just admit that you don't care whether your doctrine is coherent and that you're going to believe what you believe no matter what anyone might say. That at least would be honest! But then again, why would I expect intellectual honesty from someone who repeatedly claims to have independently discovered immutability within the bible.

I swear I must just simply be a glutton for punishment!

This website is flat out 1000% a waste of time! What the hell am I doing here!

No matter how you slice and dice it God says of Himself He does not change. Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Think I will stay with what God said.

 

[Tambora]

Oh, I'm making Clete unhappy. Woe is me.

I come here in spite of you being here, Clete, because I am long-suffering, and because there are others here who actually aren't pigs.

You can whisper in someone's ear and get me banned, if I'm so hard for you to tolerate.
That will be a work of yours that needs to be burned at the Bema Seat.
But, I'll be fine. Don't worry.

Yes, you are fine.
I like to study with you.
You question things and seek truth.

 

[Clete]

No matter how you slice and dice it God says of Himself He does not change. Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Think I will stay with what God said.

Repeating an argument, doesn't make the rebuttal go away, Leatherneck!

Why don't you tell me why what I said in response to this point already can't be right?

Do you have ANYTHING at all to say in response to the argument that have been made against your doctrine other than merely repeating yourself?

 

[Leatherneck]

Repeating an argument, doesn't make the rebuttal go away, Leatherneck!

Why don't you tell me why what I said in response to this point already can't be right?

Do you have ANYTHING at all to say in response to the argument that have been made against your doctrine other than merely repeating yourself?

I have a scripture( more than one actually) that literally says God doesn’t change and you have no scripture that says God does. Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, Ichange not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Think I will stay with what God said.

 

[Clete]

I have a scripture( more than one actually) that literally says God doesn’t change and you have no scripture that says God does. Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, Ichange not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Think I will stay with what God said.

Was this an INTENTIONAL lie or are you stupid? No one could hardly be this stupid!

I've explained how your two sentences worth of proof texts do not mean that God doesn't change IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER (i.e. in other words, your proof texts do NOT say that God is immutable - not in English and not in the original languages either). I then quoted passage after passage throughout the entire bible that demonstrates that God definitely does change in many, dramatic and permanent ways!

Do you not remember just a few days ago when this discussion started when I cited the fact that God BECAME flesh?
How about when God died and spent three days in the grave and then arose with a brand new glorified body that He has to this day?
How about Jonah - THE WHOLE ENTIRE BOOK OF JONAH?!
Then there's several other passages I've cited in Genesis and Jeremiah and there's a whole lot more that I could cite that I haven't yet - not that any amount of scripture would move you a single solitary inch!

You take two or three sentences that say God doesn't change, which I do not deny exist, and insist that they don't mean that God doesn't change in the same way normal people mean it when they use that phrase in any other context. No, you insist that it MUST mean that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It doesn't matter to you that you have to explain away an entire book of the Old Testament. It doesn't matter to you that you have to wiggle around the incarnation of Christ, of all things! The only thing that matters to you is that you have a single sentence in Malachi that apparently the ENTIRE bible must be interpreted around.

And why does this one sentence in Malachi trump the whole rest of any other scripture that teaches that God is not immutable? Because of your doctrine! That is THE ONLY reason! There is NOTHING that can overtake your devotion to immutability. No other doctrine can touch it. Not the incarnation, not the death, burial and resurrection of the Creator and not GOD HIMSELF telling you in His word that He changes His mind. None of it comes within 10,000 miles of touching your undying devotion and worship of the pagan Greek immutable God of Aristotle and Plato.


Clete

 

[Leatherneck]

Was this an INTENTIONAL lie or are you stupid? No one could hardly be this stupid!

I've explained how your two sentences worth of proof texts do not mean that God doesn't change IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER (i.e. in other words, your proof texts do NOT say that God is immutable - not in English and not in the original languages either). I then quoted passage after passage throughout the entire bible that demonstrates that God definitely does change in many, dramatic and permanent ways!

Do you not remember just a few days ago when this discussion started when I cited the fact that God BECAME flesh?
How about when God died and spent three days in the grave and then arose with a brand new glorified body that He has to this day?
How about Jonah - THE WHOLE ENTIRE BOOK OF JONAH?!
Then there's several other passages I've cited in Genesis and Jeremiah and there's a whole lot more that I could cite that I haven't yet - not that any amount of scripture would move you a single solitary inch!

You take two or three sentences that say God doesn't change, which I do not deny exist, and insist that they don't mean that God doesn't change in the same way normal people mean it when they use that phrase in any other context. No, you insist that it MUST mean that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It doesn't matter to you that you have to explain away an entire book of the Old Testament. It doesn't matter to you that you have to wiggle around the incarnation of Christ, of all things! The only thing that matters to you is that you have a single sentence in Malachi that apparently the ENTIRE bible must be interpreted around.

And why does this one sentence in Malachi trump the whole rest of any other scripture that teaches that God is not immutable? Because of your doctrine! That is THE ONLY reason! There is NOTHING that can overtake your devotion to immutability. No other doctrine can touch it. Not the incarnation, not the death, burial and resurrection of the Creator and not GOD HIMSELF telling you in His word that He changes His mind. None of it comes within 10,000 miles of touching your undying devotion and worship of the pagan Greek immutable God of Aristotle and Plato.


Clete

If I agreed with your error I would have to believe that God not only died in the flesh but that He also died in His Spirit, which was in heaven. The Spirit of God did not die because God is immutable, unchanging, eternal without shadow and without turning. I made the choice many years ago that God is true and everyman a liar.

1Sa 15:29 - And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

 

[Right Divider]

It's a convention of language. It doesn't exist, like a car, wallet, or computer does. It's how we describe sequence.

It's like numbers. They are also not a thing, but a construct... An idea.
You cannot find numbers in the physical world.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If I agreed with your error I would have to believe that God not only died in the flesh but that He also died in His Spirit, which was in heaven.

Jesus died both physically (He was separated from His physical body) and spiritually (He was separated from the Father as per Matthew 27:46).

You seem to think that we're arguing that death means something other than separation.

So please, if you would, define what you mean by "die," and if you're going to argue against OUR position, make sure you're arguing against OUR definition of "die, death, dead," etc, and not your definition inserted into our position.

The Spirit of God did not die because God is immutable, unchanging, eternal without shadow and without turning.

More begging the question, with no supporting evidence. Thus, it can be dismissed without evidence.

I made the choice many years ago that God is true and everyman a liar.

Seems like you forgot to include yourself in that.

1Sa 15:29 - And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

[Right Divider]

Indeed, God created everything. We see time being created right here.

Gen. 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

That is NOT "time created", it is time itemized into identifiable duration's of time.
The created things indicate time due to their motions. There is in no sense the "creation of time" in that verse.

 

[Clete]

How do you know that God cannot control time ?

I already explained that?

Do you actually read my posts or is this well and truly just a blatant waste of my time?

Time is an idea, not an ontological thing that can be controled. God is quite fully capable of controlling any natural process or any other thing that is used as a clock but controlling clocks is not at all the same thing as controlling time.

Do you have a scripture to support that belief ?

Yeah, sure! How's the entire bible for you?

Where is the evidence that God can go back in time and change things? It's not there! God has never shown His power by intervening to change the past, not a single time. Instead, He must allow His Son to suffer in order to fix problems created in the past.

How about all the times when God prophesied something would happen and then it didn't happened?

I could go on for quite a while but to save time....

When Reading in the Greek, We See that God:​

​

- is timeless
- in an eternal now
- without sequence or succession
- without moment or duration
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.​

​

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And the Platonists. For the Reformation broke with Rome, but not with Greece. (See this in Post 5B of Bob's debate with D. James Kennedy's Professor of New Testament.) So these philosophical terms are uncritically repeated by the Christian authors of typical systematic theology textbooks, and therefore, taught to young ministers in seminary.​

​

In the section heading just above, the word Greek does not refer, as many would assume, to the text of the New Testament that was originally written in Greek. Rather, it was used to refer to pagan Greek philosophy, which insisted that God exists outside of time. In contrast, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the Bible about God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through unending time and an everlasting duration. The above timelessness terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms, as listed below, are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture.​

​

​

When Reading the Bible, We See that God:​

​

is - and was - and is to come - whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - before all things - forever and ever - the Ancient of Days - from before the ages of the ages - from ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - from of old - remains forever - eternal - immortal - the Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God's years are without number - rock of ages/everlasting strength - manifest in His own time - waiting until - everlasting Father - alive forevermore - always lives - forever - continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - from everlasting to everlasting - from that time forward, even forever - and of His kingdom there will be no end. (references here) - Excerpted from HERE​

And here's more evidence that you will not read....

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Since God is eternal an unchanging time, which God created, has no effect on Him.

Do you understand what it means to "beg the question"?

Whether or not "God is eternal" (i.e. "timeless") is what is being debated. If you use the question that is being debated as a premise for an argument then you have "begged the question". It is a fallacy for a great reason which I would certainly hope you have the brains to see intuitively.

I try to keep my mind and beliefs about God inside of what the scripture teaches about God.

If that were so, you would not be here defending Pagan Greek ideas about God because that is precisely where all this horse hockey comes from.

I believe it is wise when debating, praying to, and or teaching about God to always remember when God spoke to Job and said this,” Job 38:2 who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge

Is repeating yourself all you've got at this point? Have a really exhausted your entire arsenal of arguments in defense of your doctrine to the point that all you can do is repeat the same mindless, intentionally out of context irrelevancies over and over again?

Clete

 

[Clete]

If I agreed with your error I would have to believe that God not only died in the flesh but that He also died in His Spirit, which was in heaven.

No, you wouldn't! That would be stupidity.

The Spirit of God did not die because God is immutable, unchanging, eternal without shadow and without turning.

Are you saying then that Jesus is not God or are you denying that Jesus died?

I made the choice many years ago that God is true and every man a liar.

Well, you certainly have all the Christian cliches down pat!

1Sa 15:29 - And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

How do you deal with I Kings 22:19-22

I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’​

​

Clete

​

 

[Clete]

That is NOT "time created", it is time itemized into identifiable duration's of time.
The created things indicate time due to their motions. There is in no sense the "creation of time" in that verse.

Genesis 1:14 is about the creation of clocks! God definitely created clocks and really good ones too, but definitely not time. Clocks and time are not the same thing any more than a ruler is the same thing as distance.

 

[Clete]

If time is just an idea, try walking out of it or functioning at all outside of it.

Walking and functioning both require sequence and duration. Therefore, "...walking out of time or functioning at all outside of it." is a contradiction. It's just irrational fantasy.

 

[Leatherneck]

No, you wouldn't! That would be stupidity.


Are you saying then that Jesus is not God or are you denying that Jesus died?


Well, you certainly have all the Christian cliches down pat!


How do you deal with I Kings 22:19-22

I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’​

​

Clete

​

1.Jesus is God in the FLESH 2. Jesus died a physical death, which the Spirit of God cannot die. 3. While Jesus walked the earth God( Spirit) remained in heaven. 1King 22:19 is God’s showing us how His purpose would be fulfilled, and how He chose to have His purpose fulfilled. What you call a Christian cliche is actually scripture,”let God be true and every man a liar”.

Rom 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let Godbe true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justifiedin thy sayings, and mightest overcomewhen thou art judged.

 

[Clete]

1.Jesus is God in the FLESH 2. Jesus died a physical death, which the Spirit of God cannot die. 3. While Jesus walked the earth God( Spirit) remained in heaven. 1King 22:19 is God’s showing us how His purpose would be fulfilled, and how He chose to have His purpose fulfilled. What you call a Christian cliche is actually scripture,”let God be true and every man a liar”.

Rom 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let Godbe true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justifiedin thy sayings, and mightest overcomewhen thou art judged.

Yes, yes, there's all sorts of scriptures that Christians have turned into mindless cliches.

Your premises:
1. God is immutable.
2. That which is immutable cannot die.

So I ask you again...

Are you saying then that Jesus is not God or are you denying that Jesus died? Based on YOUR OWN stated premises, you are forced to choose between those two options.

The only other alternative is to admit that you've made an error.

 

[Leatherneck]

I already explained that?

Do you actually read my posts or is this well and truly just a blatant waste of my time?

Time is an idea, not an ontological thing that can be controled. God is quite fully capable of controlling any natural process or any other thing that is used as a clock but controlling clocks is not at all the same thing as controlling time.


Yeah, sure! How's the entire bible for you?

Where is the evidence that God can go back in time and change things? It's not there! God has never shown His power by intervening to change the past, not a single time. Instead, He must allow His Son to suffer in order to fix problems created in the past.

How about all the times when God prophesied something would happen and then it didn't happened?

I could go on for quite a while but to save time....

When Reading in the Greek, We See that God:​

​

- is timeless​

- in an eternal now​

- without sequence or succession​

- without moment or duration​

- atemporal and outside of time​

- not was, nor will be, but only is​

- has no past​

- has no future.​

​

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And the Platonists. For the Reformation broke with Rome, but not with Greece. (See this in Post 5B of Bob's debate with D. James Kennedy's Professor of New Testament.) So these philosophical terms are uncritically repeated by the Christian authors of typical systematic theology textbooks, and therefore, taught to young ministers in seminary.​

​

In the section heading just above, the word Greek does not refer, as many would assume, to the text of the New Testament that was originally written in Greek. Rather, it was used to refer to pagan Greek philosophy, which insisted that God exists outside of time. In contrast, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the Bible about God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through unending time and an everlasting duration. The above timelessness terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms, as listed below, are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture.​

​

​

When Reading the Bible, We See that God:​

​

is - and was - and is to come - whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - before all things - forever and ever - the Ancient of Days - from before the ages of the ages - from ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - from of old - remains forever - eternal - immortal - the Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God's years are without number - rock of ages/everlasting strength - manifest in His own time - waiting until - everlasting Father - alive forevermore - always lives - forever - continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - from everlasting to everlasting - from that time forward, even forever - and of His kingdom there will be no end. (references here) - Excerpted from HERE​

And here's more evidence that you will not read....

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Do you understand what it means to "beg the question"?

Whether or not "God is eternal (i.e. "timeless) is what is being debated. If you use the question that is being debated as a premise for an argument then you have "begged the question". It is a fallacy for a great reason which I would certainly hope you have the brains to see intuitively.


If that were so, you would not be here defending Pagan Greek ideas about God because that is precisely where all this horse hockey comes from.


Is repeating yourself all you've got at this point? Have a really exhausted your entire arsenal of arguments in defense of your doctrine to the point that all you can do is repeat the same mindless, intentionally out of context irrelevancies over and over again?

Clete

Scripture says God knows t

Yes, yes, there's all sorts of scriptures that Christians have turned into mindless cliches.

Your premises:
1. God is immutable.
2. That which is immutable cannot die.

So I ask you again...

Are you saying then that Jesus is not God or are you denying that Jesus died? Based on YOUR OWN stated premises, you are forced to choose between those two options.

The only other alternative is to admit that you've made

Yes, yes, there's all sorts of scriptures that Christians have turned into mindless cliches.

Your premises:
1. God is immutable.
2. That which is immutable cannot die.

So I ask you again...

Are you saying then that Jesus is not God or are you denying that Jesus died? Based on YOUR OWN stated premises, you are forced to choose between those two options.

The only other alternative is to admit that you've made an error.

So you believe God the Father died then who was Jesus talking to while He was on the cross? The error is not mine it is yours.

Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[Leatherneck]

Jesus died both physically (He was separated from His physical body) and spiritually (He was separated from the Father as per Matthew 27:46).

You seem to think that we're arguing that death means something other than separation.

So please, if you would, define what you mean by "die," and if you're going to argue against OUR position, make sure you're arguing against OUR definition of "die, death, dead," etc, and not your definition inserted into our position.



More begging the question, with no supporting evidence. Thus, it can be dismissed without evidence.



Seems like you forgot to include yourself in that.



Irrelevant to the current discussion.

No argument Jesus was God in the flesh and He died. So exactly what was God the Father separated from while He was in heaven ? Did God in heaven stop being God when Jesus died ? Agreed death equals separation so again what was God the Father separated from when Jesus died on the cross, and do you have a a scripture that says God in heaven died or separated from anything ?

 

[Clete]

Scripture says God knows t


So you believe God the Father died then who was Jesus talking to while He was on the cross? The error is not mine it is yours.

Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

You are intentionally wasting my time. Good bye.

 

[Leatherneck]

You are intentionally wasting my time. Good bye.

Nope, quoting scriptures you could not dismiss or talk away might be a waste of your time but it was time spent bragging on and glorifying God on my end……bye.