On Rape (the original statement)

[PureX]

You know what all this is about, don't you? It's about taking the woman's power away from her, and giving it to the man, so that he gets to decide what she "deserves" and what she doesn't. Her saying "no" is irrelevant to the man who thinks it's his place to decide when "no" should actually mean no. Because the woman isn't considered to be as fully autonomous as the man, to the man who believes it's his place to decide when to accept her rebuff and when he doesn't have to.

 

[Quincy]

You know what all this is about, don't you? It's about taking the woman's power away from her, and giving it to the man, so that he gets to decide what she "deserves" and what she doesn't. Her saying "no" is irrelevant to the man who thinks it's his place to decide when "no" should actually mean no. Because the woman isn't considered to be as fully autonomous as the man, to the man who believes it's his place to decide when to accept her rebuff and when he doesn't have to.

Perhaps so, and I don't see any real difference between that and Sharia law.

 

[Rusha]

You know what all this is about, don't you? It's about taking the woman's power away from her, and giving it to the man, so that he gets to decide what she "deserves" and what she doesn't. Her saying "no" is irrelevant to the man who thinks it's his place to decide when "no" should actually mean no. Because the woman isn't considered to be as fully autonomous as the man, to the man who believes it's his place to decide when to accept her rebuff and when he doesn't have to.

Exactly.

 

[Rusha]

Or ......
A guy is at the gym.
All dressed in his gym shorts and tank top, flexing his muscles.
How dare him show up dressed and acting like that, knowing that it might entice some women (and some men too) to want him sexually.
We need to set a standard of how men should dress and act, as to not arouse anyone.

Ridiculous.

But but but ... he's a guy ....

Oh yeah, you just covered that.

 

[PureX]

Perhaps so, and I don't see any real difference between that and Sharia law.

There are reasons why there are a number of Christian men, here, defending this usurpation of woman's autonomy. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all spring from the same root culture. And that culture was very misogynist. And there are still fundamentalist sects within all three religions that still are misogynist, and that still want to return us all to that culture.

 

[LoneStar]

You know what all this is about, don't you? It's about taking the woman's power away from her, and giving it to the man, so that he gets to decide what she "deserves" and what she doesn't. Her saying "no" is irrelevant to the man who thinks it's his place to decide when "no" should actually mean no. Because the woman isn't considered to be as fully autonomous as the man, to the man who believes it's his place to decide when to accept her rebuff and when he doesn't have to.

That sums it up. They want cookie cutter women. I don't want cookie cutter women. I rather enjoy their diversity.

 

[musterion]

You can dress a woman like this:

and they will still be in danger of being raped.

Worse, that she's the actual property of the man who makes her wear it.

 

[musterion]

We could just use the excuse ok doser uses ....... He shouldn't have put himself in that situation. He was asking for it. He is just as guilty. And you should tell him that you have no sympathy for him because he is guilty of putting himself in that situation.

How does it sound now?

I'm not Sod, and you didn't answer the question, you just tried to deflect it.

 

[kmoney]

No. Shes already suffered trouble, just like the person who left their car running suffers their loss because of their negligence.

ok. Agree.

In this scenerio? Depends on how it occurred- not really sure how to define what i mean (a couple possible scenerios) without pushing the line on whats acceptable to post.

If one thing i am thinking of happened (like he did something while she was in his lap all at once while she had been allowing him to have his hands on her already), yes he should get a lessor punishment- if any -also because he was drunk (if a woman is deemed to not be able to consent because of not being responsible for what she does when drunk, thats a 2 way street - he could have believed her allowing all that and sitting there was a yes)

But if he later forced her - like grabbed her, shes fighting and saying no the whole time and then does it, he should get full punishment.

Either doesn't remove at all her negligence and poor judgment in placing herself in the situation willfully and knowing the condition of the men.

I don't really want to get into various scenarios. I think I'm mostly in agreement with this though. My main concern is that no amount of provocative behavior should lessen or deflect blame for when rape occurs. Your first scenario wouldn't be rape, in my opinion.

I mean if a man whose drunk date consents then changes her mind, according to laws now, it doesnt change his poor judgment for having sex with her when she is incapeable (because of drunkeness) of actually consenting.

Twisted isnt it.

Yes, that type of double standard isn't good. One difficulty in this stuff is that it often is just his word against hers.

 

[Tambora]

I'm not Sod,

I didn't say you were.

and you didn't answer the question,

I gave an answer.
It may not have been the answer I personally would give, but I did give an answer.

you just tried to deflect it.

The deflection started when you brought up your scenario.

I ask because I do have a point directly related to this thread.

Let hear it.

 

[kmoney]

to begin with?

an acknowledgment that her actions - the choices she made - were directly responsible for the situation in which she found herself - vulnerable and at risk

And why do you want that acknowledgement? It seems a bit vindictive.
Again, going over things in order to make wiser choices going forward, and in an attempt to help other girls, is good, but it still feels like a veiled attempt at deflecting blame and making the girl feel worse.

 

[kmoney]

Personally, I think we have been so brain washed to parrot back that rape is NEVER the woman's fault....

It's not. No amount of initial provocative behavior puts the fault on the woman if she says no and the guy doesn't stop.

 

[ok doser]

It's not. No amount of initial provocative behavior puts the fault on the woman if she says no and the guy doesn't stop.

kmo - i'd like you to consider this:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4520204&postcount=28

 

[ok doser]

Rape as an inevitability exists only in the mind of a rapist.

i think you would agree with the following statement: "If I drive drunk often enough, it is inevitable that I will have a wreck or get a DWI - I may get away with it 99 times out of a hundred, but eventually the odds will catch up with me"

Not sure why you would disagree with the following: "If I put myself in situations and act in a manner that I am advised to avoid as increasing my risk of being raped, it is inevitable that I will be raped - I may get away with it 99 times out of a hundred, but eventually the odds will catch up with me"

There is no behavior that should expect RAPE.

then why is my college campus plastered with signs, littered with flyers and consumed with symposia and lectures on how to avoid being raped?

They recognize that there are behaviors that increase one's risk of being raped.

But they don't recognize that in disregarding that advice, women are choosing to put themselves at risk and bear responsibility for the inevitable

 

[bybee]

i think you would agree with the following statement: "If I drive drunk often enough, it is inevitable that I will have a wreck or get a DWI - I may get away with it 99 times out of a hundred, but eventually the odds will catch up with me"

Not sure why you would disagree with the following: "If I put myself in situations and act in a manner that I am advised to avoid as increasing my risk of being raped, it is inevitable that I will be raped"



then why is my college campus plastered with signs, littered with flyers and consumed with symposia and lectures on how to avoid being raped?

They recognize that there are behaviors that increase one's risk of being raped.

But they don't recognize that in disregarding that advice, women are choosing to put themselves at risk and bear responsibility for the inevitable

Perhaps your campus ought to be littered with signs saying "Guys! Keep your pants zipped". "Rape is a crime of violence! You are a criminal if you do it!" "Stay away from women if you cannot control yourself!"

 

[ok doser]

Perhaps your campus ought to be littered with signs saying "Guys! Keep your pants zipped". "Rape is a crime of violence! You are a criminal if you do it!" "Stay away from women if you cannot control yourself!"

it is

and nowhere do they recognize that a significant number of rape is male on male

and a small amount is female on male

 

[ok doser]

That's because you look for any loophole you can muster, no matter how ridiculous it is.

no, it's because i'm looking for the most obvious way to get it through some thick skulls that we all bear responsibility for the choices we make

you are trying to say that a man raping a woman is a natural response.

actually, it is becoming recognized as such

see "Rape Culture"

You are a disgusting perverted man.

because you think women should act like whores and not bear any responsibility for the situations they find themselves in?

 

[kmoney]

Yep.

This whole thing is just a smokescreen to control women at the whims of men.

Have you noticed that there has been no charge against the guys that show up for a frat party?
They were just asking for a rape charge, cause you know, they put themselves in an unsavory environment.
They should have expected a rape charge to occur.
Where is the line drawn in the sand for these men?

Nice turn around.

 

[ok doser]

There is no situation where rape can be said to be inevitable.
We know this because most woman that act provocatively are not raped.
If it were inevitable, they all would be raped.

kmo made the same mistake - neither of you understand the meaning of the word "inevitable"

if i drive drunk often enough, i may get home safely 99 times out of 100, but a wreck or a DWI is inevitable


likewise, a girl who disregards the advice given her on how to avoid risky situations will eventually get raped

it is inevitable

 

[glorydaz]

kmo made the same mistake - neither of you understand the meaning of the word "inevitable"

if i drive drunk often enough, i may get home safely 99 times out of 100, but a wreck or a DWI is inevitable


likewise, a girl who disregards the advice given her on how to avoid risky situations will eventually get raped

it is inevitable

I'm still looking for the "name calling" in this post........ :think: