NFL 2017

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader (among quarterbacks) who's ever played the game, but not also be at the same time the greatest qb who's ever played?

I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader who's ever played the game, but not also be the greatest qb who's ever played?

I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?
I'm sure the guys in either huddle would tell you that when their guy was leading them they always believed they could win. Joe impresses me with what he did with essentially the same cast of characters that couldn't beat their shadow.

The first year Joe wasn't the starter. I can't remember if he was injured or just learning. The year before the team had gone 2-12. Walsh coached Joe's first year on the bench Niners to another 2-12 record. Joe started seven games the following year and Walsh had them at 6-10.

The next year (81) Joe started every game, the team went 13-3 and won a SB.

The next year was a shortened strike year.

83 they went 10-6
84 they went 15-1 and Joe won his 2nd SB

The next year they drafted Rice, who caught all of 3 tds while Joe led the team to a 10-6 record.
86 was another 10 win season.
87 was 13-2
The next two years he led them to 10-6, 14-2 and back to back rings.

In 1990 he was injured early in the 3rd quarter of a playoff run for a third ring and that effectively ended his tenure with SF.

He went to KC, beat the team that betrayed him head to head with a lesser team. He went 11-5 in his first season.

Leadership? No one who played with him will be confused about it.

Quality at his position? I like this bit from an article in the Press Democrat:

A year before Walsh died he was watching old film of Joe for a presentation he was scheduled to give.

Bill told my dad, “Every pass Joe threw was perfect, exactly where it needed to go.” A year before he died, Bill fell in love with Joe all over again.
 
Last edited:

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
I'm sure the guys in either huddle would tell you that when their guy was leading them they always believed they could win. Joe impresses me with what he did with essentially the same cast of characters that couldn't beat their shadow.

The first year Joe wasn't the starter. I can't remember if he was injured or just learning. The year before the team had gone 2-12. Walsh coached Joe's first year on the bench Niners to another 2-12 record. Joe started seven games the following year and Walsh had them at 6-10.

The next year Joe started every game, the team went 13-3 and won a SB.
Yes but NE won 3 SBs in Brady's first four full seasons. NE wasn't a championship team until Brady, and it was an instant transformation, and now they've won five with him at the helm. And none of that matters, because Joe's stats are better in the championship games. IOW, SF turning around under Joe's quarterbacking/leadership cannot mean as much as NE's transformation does under Brady's, but Brady's the 4th or fifth best qb ever, and Joe's better than him and always will be.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
With me it's his play.

That's fine. But I agree with Otto Graham that being a great leader is the most important thing for a quarterback. If anyone would know about that it is Graham who won seven NFL championships at quarterback.

I think that of all the Super Bowl era quarterbacks Staubach was the greatest leader of them all. And his quarterback skills were not far behind any of the other quarterbacks of the same era.

That is my opinion and you have yours.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader (among quarterbacks) who's ever played the game, but not also be at the same time the greatest qb who's ever played?

I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?

I would say that it is dependent on witness testimony. I saw with my own eyes that Staubach's leadership abilities transformed a team almost overnight. Also, please consdider again what is said in this article about his leadership:

"He pushed his teammates to greater heights than even they thought possible. Roger was able to draw more out of a player than that player could have drawn out of himself – the mark of a true leader.

Roger’s teammates idolized him. He was bigger than life to them. They felt that with him, anything was possible. They gave him their absolute all because they knew that if they did he would deliver for them and the Dallas Cowboys."

These things about Staubach and his career in the NFL were well known almost from the moment when he became the starting quarterback. No one disputed these facts.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Yes but NE won 3 SBs in Brady's first four full seasons.
They did. And he wasn't particularly good in the first one and no where as good as Joe in any of them...well, that's not fair, his best SB edged out Joe's worst. Eventually Brady was Brady, but early he was like Big Ben, winning by team. Contributing, but not dominating from the position.

NE wasn't a championship team until Brady
They were, just not a SB Champion. They won the AFC twice and made the big game before he got there. SF was a poverty of nothing before Joe.

, and it was an instant transformation, and now they've won five with him at the helm.
In his first full year under center they went from 5-11 the year before to 11-5 and a SB (where, again, Brady was okay, but not great). Before that poor preceding season New England had a pretty good team. It was an off year, not a long streak of failure that Tom inherited.

Then Tom got better and though the next two were close affairs, he had three rings by his first four year stretch. It would be ten years before he won another close and controversial SB.

Joe's team was 2-12 for two straight years before he took the helm. He came in for 7 games the next year. They went 6-10. His first full year under center they went 13-3 and a SB. Two years later he won his second. Five years later he'd added two more, picking up his four in nine years.

And none of that matters, because Joe's stats are better in the championship games. IOW, SF turning around under Joe's quarterbacking/leadership cannot mean as much as NE's transformation does under Brady's
It can unless you think a team that's won four games in two years is better than one that wins 13 in that same stretch. The turnaround in SF was more dramatic. Now if you only concentrate on the year immediately before the SB, SF won one more game. But they also won two more games that SB season. So even with that narrow a focus it's a wash...but ultimately you're right, what sets Joe apart is his play in the biggest game. Four appearances, four wins, no ints, and every game played at a remarkable level, with the weakest leaving him with a 100 rating.

, but Brady's the 4th or fifth best qb ever, and Joe's better than him and always will be.
Brady is special. And he may end up, if he already isn't, as being the NFL's answer to Jabbar. Great for longer than anyone has a reasonable right to expect to be.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
SF's turn around was like Bird with the Celtics. Which was the biggest at the time. I would have to crib pro-reference.comto get the numbers.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I always hated Bird. The Celtics went from 29 wins to 61. And Red didn't tank for high picks. So Montana's turn around was bigger in terms of futility of the franchise.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I always hated Bird.
If you weren't rooting for the Celtics you had to.

The Celtics went from 29 wins to 61. And Red didn't tank for high picks. So Montana's turn around was bigger in terms of futility of the franchise.
Montana's trade to KC kept his impact going. They used the Chiefs pick (with a little movement) to get Dana Stubblefield. The Niners knew how to pick talent back then.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The House that Manning Built.

lucas%20oil%20stadium%201.jpg


lucas%20oil%20stadium%202.jpg
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Tony Romo will retire today. It is probably the right move.
We'll see. It's early. He was fielding offers. I'm betting that with the Cowboys needs removed someone will make him an offer he can't refuse as we get closer and closer to the actual season. Maybe Denver will say, "We can tune you up slowly. Our guy understands. He'll win enough for us to have you rested and ready for the playoff push and everyone can go home a winner." Yes, I'm eyeballing you, Denver.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
We'll see. It's early. He was fielding offers. I'm betting that with the Cowboys needs removed someone will make him an offer he can't refuse as we get closer and closer to the actual season. Maybe Denver will say, "We can tune you up slowly. Our guy understands. He'll win enough for us to have you rested and ready for the playoff push and everyone can go home a winner." Yes, I'm eyeballing you, Denver.

Well, Elway says their team is solid at QB. I agree he could come in and make Lynch better, seeing as Lynch has the proverbial "better upside". On the other hand, does he want to take an offer from Cleveland? He has been hurt so much the last 2 years the idea of sitting in the broadcast booth is probably appealing.

Which reminds me, I am not sure how I will feel this fall without Verne calling the game of the week. Gary Danielson is fine as color, but play by play takes a gabber with charisma. Romo will be color for CBS, according to ESPN. He is going to step right in. Maybe a big NFL salary, or a meager 7 figure salary in the booth. I would take the booth.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Well, Elway says their team is solid at QB. I agree he could come in and make Lynch better, seeing as Lynch has the proverbial "better upside". On the other hand, does he want to take an offer from Cleveland? He has been hurt so much the last 2 years the idea of sitting in the broadcast booth is probably appealing.
The only thing that makes me wonder about that is his competitiveness. I was listening to DP's show for a bit today and he noted people close to Romo were saying it killed him that they finally had a solid team last year and he wasn't allowed to compete to get his job back. That has to sting. So maybe he told Jerry he was out to get the whole thing settled, and maybe some part of him thinks Denver might rethink things. It's hard for me to imagine someone with what he has in the tank and the potential suitors he has to have walking away. This isn't Barry Sanders, with a HOF lock in place, fine numbers notwithstanding.

I think that's one reason Rivers is going to play as long as he can. He has to live or die on numbers because he hasn't been given enough to win it all with either.

Which reminds me, I am not sure how I will feel this fall without Verne calling the game of the week. Gary Danielson is fine as color, but play by play takes a gabber with charisma. Romo will be color for CBS, according to ESPN. He is going to step right in. Maybe a big NFL salary, or a meager 7 figure salary in the booth. I would take the booth.
If I had his talent I'd give the Texans or Denver two years and see what happened.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I think Romo is better than Prescott, even at his age. But I would have played Prescott too. Because most players don't actually develop on the bench. Rodgers was better than Favre. He didn't "learn the system". In my opinion.
 
Top