ECT Nang's Boastful Lie

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I'll get to your comments later, mainly because it will take a great deal of time to unravel your repeated statements that are a polar opposite of what I believe and know the Bible to teach.

Okay, thank you. Respond at your convenience. :)

You believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and includes conduct.
I believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and excludes conduct.

No. I believe: Righteousness is through faith by grace (Rom 5:2, Eph 2:8). And I simply know that the definition of righteousness (which is imputed by faith, without works) inherently fulfills God's claims on conduct. Righteousness is God's standard of conduct, so He's imputed to us our conduct as well as the character from which it comes.

It's a greater and higher view of grace and faith and righteousness. God didn't just give us His character, He gave us the ability to exhibit conduct. He gave us the power to become sons of God. To walk as Jesus walked. Not to have an escape and an excuse to walk however we choose as our own standard of conduct from the old man. That's sin.

We're new creatures. We're given the ability to "hit the mark" (righteousness imputed by faith) rather than continue to "miss the mark" (sin imputed by the law).

Thanks again for your coming response when your schedule permits.
 

musterion

Well-known member
English can't convey those subtleties, so it leads to many misunderstandings as concepts of the mind (noema), which are Satan's devices that we're to not be ignorant of.
Calling people stupid victims of Satan is often necessary. Just don't be so cowardly as to not say it outright.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Calling people stupid victims of Satan is often necessary. Just don't be so cowardly as to not say it outright.

Everyone is a stupid victim of Satan in whatever manners, even though we're saved through faith and by grace.

I've not expressed any "tone" whatsoever in this thread. It's subject matter based, not personal or accusatory in any way.

"Concepts of the mind" is the definition for noema, which is what the word devices is in that passage. Everyone has to deal with concepts of the mind. It's not just MADs and not just non-MADs.

It's disappointing that you didn't address the rest of that post, which is the heart of the whole subject. This would be a great thread for you to interract on the topic, if you would.
 

Livelystone

New member
Those who are in Christ walk by grace through faith, just as they received Him. Col 2:6

It is Christ and not "them" who are walking by grace through faith!

Paul agrees

Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
This verse simply means Abraham was already imputed righteousness (dikaiosune), and this action brought out that fact of who he was.

Paul said the opposite. Why do you not try and figure out the apparent contradictions? They are not actually hard to do. Paul explicitly explains it to the Romans who were proselytes to Israel and knew.

How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
We're new creatures. We're given the ability to "hit the mark" (righteousness imputed by faith) rather than continue to "miss the mark" (sin imputed by the law).

Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit your now being made perfect by the flesh?
 

Doom

New member
It is Christ and not "them" who are walking by grace through faith!

Paul agrees

Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Are you saying the verses contradict?

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him"
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Salvation has NEVER been by works. And the law was a Covenant, not legislation.

That is an idiot thing to say since a covenant, which you do not have, is a legal agreement.

Leviticus 18

4 You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Paul said the opposite. Why do you not try and figure out the apparent contradictions? They are not actually hard to do. Paul explicitly explains it to the Romans who were proselytes to Israel and knew.

How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

You've (possibly intentionally) misunderstood what I said.

Abraham was imputed faith while in uncircumcision. The James passage doesn't refute that, it supports that by him using the term justified (dikaioo).

Do you not believe God imputed His own righteousness to Abraham? If it weren't for that imputed righteousness, Abraham's actions would have been sin. The action did nothing except demonstrate the faith. That's the imputed righteousness. The character that enables the conduct.

Without the imputed righteousness, Abraham would have been unable to exhibit the conduct. Righteousness is justice. Justice, just like our legal system (though it's flawed, unlike God), is the standard of conduct.

The problem isn't in understanding that we are saved through faith by grace, and it's absolutely not of works.

The problem is in NOT understanding what the word righteouness means by definition.

Righteouness isn't merely an imputed character. Righteousness is the empowerment to meet the demands of God's standard of conduct.

To deny the power to demonstrate God's conduct is to deny the imputation of righteousness by faith.

The misunderstanding is the generalization and conceptualization of the word righteousness rather than knowing the actual defintion for its complete meaning.

Righteousness is "right-ness". The rightness of heart and to exhibit the rightness of action.

By grace and faith, we've been given that which is right as our imputed character. That which is just, which is expected by the one who sets the rules and regulations whereby man must live, whether that be by society or by God.

Therefore, it is that which is expected as duty or is claimed as a right because of one's conformity to the standards of God for character and conduct.

It refers to one who acts conformably to justice and right without any deficiency or failure. Since weren't inherently righteous and acted according to our own standards of conduct; we didn't inherently have God's character and couldn't inherently bring forth the conduct required by His standard.

Now, by faith and grace alone without any works, we have been imputed that righteousness to have His character as our standard of conduct which we bring forth by His delegated power (John 1).

The issues isn't whether we're saved by faith and grace alone apart from works. The issue is not understanding that the very inherent definition of righteousness is for imputed character AND conduct by His power alone.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit your now being made perfect by the flesh?

I'm not made perfect by the flesh. My flesh is reckoned dead by faith, crucified with Christ.

I wouldn't even be able to have conduct if it weren't for the imputed righteousness of God that accompanied the imputed character. Both are righteousness.

Nobody is made perfect by the flesh. Only by the imputed righteousness of God that includes conduct.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
That is an idiot thing to say since a covenant, which you do not have, is a legal agreement.

Leviticus 18

4 You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

I most certainly have a covenant, and it's the agreement of my faith with that which God said would atone for my sin and impute His righteousness.

It's the covenant He cut with His own body and blood (which is why He had to be Theanthropos instead of a non-fleshly spiritual apparition or just a human). I've agree with God that this is binding upon us both, and have accepted that body and blood according to the terms of what Jesus said and did.

It's legally binding upon both parties of the covenant, sealed by God's very Word made flesh. I've passed through the two halves of the covenant sacrifice, and am engrafted into the vine as a branch to be partaker of God's divine nature.

I'm imputed His righteousness. And as I rest in Christ, by His faith I work out my salvation from my inner man to the outer man that is reckoned dead by faith. This is all the works of faith, so it's not sin. It's my empowerment to become the son of God by the spirit of adoption through the body and blood of Christ.

I'm IN Christ, having put Him on when I walked through the cut sacrifice of His covenant with me. That all happened by faith, and I was imputed righteousness.

Do you deny the cut covenant of the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Neither is Nick.

I never said differently. I don't know him. He's repeatedly told me to repent in neg reps.

So is Nick's.

Okay.

So why you keep arguing?

I'm not arguing. I came to this thread to get past all the rancid drivel and to cogently address the topic to dispel all the needless animosity flying around.

There's a significant point regarding man's hypostasis and prosopon relative to faith, but that's not even what I'm addressing.

All I'm addressing is that it's not a matter of whether one is saved by faith and grace apart from ANY works. That's a scriptural fact, even if others like meshak are in total error.

The issue is the definition for righteousness, and what's included in the imputation because of faith.

Righteousness inherently includes not only character, but conduct. It's an imputed empowerment to demonstrate God's conduct by being imputed God's character by being IN Christ.

Conduct isn't excluded from righteousness by very definition of the word.

In one sentence, what IS your point?

2 sentences...

Imputed righteousness, by definition, includes inherent conduct along with the inherent character. We've been empowered to BE and to DO, not just to have some status as a label that is designated as righteousness.
 

Livelystone

New member
Are you saying the verses contradict?

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him"

The verses do not contradict but your understanding is not quite hitting the mark.

Simply put,................If we receive "Christ" we receive His Spirit

"We" as individuals are nothing more than "earthen vessels" created for the purpose of holding "water" that is spirit. It is whatever spirit who controls the heart of a person that will be seen by others through the actions taken and words spoken by us ....... does this make sense?

Simply put............ If the "Spirit" in us (our hearts) is the Spirit of God all is well and God walks out our daily walk of life in us........so far so good?

On the other hand, if the spirit within us is the unclean spirit of man, (Adam, AKA the "old man" in us) it is man whose ways are not the ways of God and is still under the influence of Satan who is directing our daily walk.

The spirit of man cannot live a godly life anymore than the Spirit of God can live a sinful life!

Either the spirit of man is ruling an individual or the Spirit of God (Christ in us) is ruling the individual.

If it is the Spirit of God ruling from within us the life people see us live out will be holy........ on the other hand if it is the spirit of man who is in charge within us; in this case our lives will be a mixture of good and evil as handed down to us from Adam and Eden who ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil putting all of mankind under the dominion of Satan.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
To the exclusion of "bad" conduct?

It isn't about the doing. It's about the imputed empowerment of character TO do as conduct.

"Bad" conduct is merely living "below" one's imputed ability. It doesn't remove the imputed character OR the imputed ability to exhibit conduct.

That's really why there's no excuse. The doing should be incidental to the being. It's all included in the imputed righteousness.

Why deny our imputed righteousness with "bad" conduct? ...would be the better question.

Do you believe we're in a covenant that Jesus Christ cut with His own body and blood?
 
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