Lent is ungodly and sinful

[Crucible]

I agree.

So who is doing it just to make a spectacle of himself? Who?

People make spectacles of themselves all the time. I'm not intending to point out Catholics specifically. There's a lot of people I see supposedly speaking in tongues- I don't think most of them are genuinely doing so.

It's a mixture of obligation to their church- and a desire to be a spectacle- that causes these things to happen in my opinion.

 

[Nick M]

My goodness! And what am I to make of one who presumes to judge the state of another Christian's soul?

This was just answered a couple of days ago. And why is it presumptuous to judge based upon testimony that people give here? That is the very thing we use to judge, their testimony.

 

[brewmama]

How do you know that?

All of this "me and my Bible" individualistic Christianity is so far removed from anything resembling the church. There is a church year, cycling through the motions of the central stories of the faith. Each period focusing on various aspects and doctrines of the faith. Lent is a period where there is focus on the fast: Self-giving in the service of others and God. Not so that God will love you, but so that we may more clearly experience and be energized for the service of others by that love.

That was Luther's point: That God loves you first, not so that you can sleep on the couch until you die and then hand in a ticket stamped by some vague notion of faith in some contractual obligation. His point was that the primacy of God's love in salvation frees you for the right motive of such works. You don't do them to earn salvation, you do them truly in the service of others because God has already granted you forgiveness and thus there is nothing to be gained for yourself by doing them. As he expresses it: "A Christian man is the most free lord of all, and subject to none; a Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all, and subject to every one." Free in relation to having to justify himself, dutiful servant in owing his servitude to his fellow man, following the commandments of Christ.

All of the aspects and doctrines throughout the church year are important all the time. But cycling through and focusing on them one at a time, gives the life of faith a rhytm, ensuring that none of them gets neglected.

You are making a lot of sense here.:cheers:

 

[glassjester]

People make spectacles of themselves all the time.

Yes, for sure.

Does that mean Lenten fasting is a bad thing to do?

 

[brewmama]

This was just answered a couple of days ago. And why is it presumptuous to judge based upon testimony that people give here? That is the very thing we use to judge, their testimony.

No you don't. If anyone says we should follow the admonishments of Christ and the Apostles to do good works and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, etc etc, we are quickly and vehemently told we are cursed by God, preaching works salvation and going to hell.

 

[glorydaz]

No you don't. If anyone says we should follow the admonishments of Christ and the Apostles to do good works and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, etc etc, we are quickly and vehemently told we are cursed by God, preaching works salvation and going to hell.

Except when people change that verse to read we are to work for our salvation, and then they do not acknowledge the fact that our "good works" can't save us. So, first you have to make sure you aren't changing the text to suit your works salvation belief, and then a dialogue can begin.

 

[glorydaz]

This was just answered a couple of days ago. And why is it presumptuous to judge based upon testimony that people give here? That is the very thing we use to judge, their testimony.

Amen.

 

[musterion]

I would say you are wrong on all counts. When we fast, we “shift our focus” from ourselves to God and others, spending less time worrying about what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, and so on in order to use our time in increased prayer and caring for the poor. We learn through fasting that we indeed can gain control over those things that we too often allow to control us—and for many people, food is a controlling factor. [We live in the only society in which an entire TV network is devoted to food!] While fasting from food, however, we are also challenged to fast from sin, from gossip, from jealousy, from anger, and from those other things which, while well within our control, we all too often allow to control us.

Flesh.

Further, just as we would refrain from eating a lot before going to an expensive restaurant for dinner—if we “ruin our appetite” we will hardly enjoy our dinner—so too we fast before Holy Pascha in order to more fully feast and celebrate on the Feast itself.

Flesh.

I, however, prefer to follow Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul on this, and seek a growing communion with God, less attachment to the world and our passions, and more holiness, as we are instructed to do.

Then Lent should be a year-round thing.

It boggles the mind that you think God would disapprove.

I'm convinced He disapproves because, by your own testimony, you are disapproved in your unbelief.

Lent seeks (at best) to add to the finished work of Christ. Not that any of you have the sense to realize that. None of you really believes His work for you is finished. Most of you refuse to avail yourself to the death of His Cross in the first place.

Instead, from what can be discerned from your own testimonies, almost all of you have believed false gospels. These make you very devoutly religious -- no one disputes or doubts that -- but leave you unjustified, unsaved and enemies of God. So all you're doing during Lent (and the other 325 days of the year) are nothing more than the filthy rags of worthless, Christ-less fleshwork that God will never accept from anyone.

Flesh cannot remedy or improve flesh. Monks flagellating themselves until they bleed, Philippino Catholics nailing themselves to crosses, and you giving up TV for Lent. It's all the same.

 

[Nick M]

If anyone says we should follow the admonishments of Christ and the Apostles to do good works and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, etc etc, we are quickly and vehemently told we are cursed by God, preaching works salvation and going to hell.

1 Corinthians 16

22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

Galatians 1

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

When somebody is instructed, and shown over and over and over, just how many times should it go on before rebuke is handed out?

Acts 13

8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

As John W says, the book is full of details. Peter restored sight in Israel. Paul blinded them. It's not hard to see the symbolism.

 

[chrysostom]

I gave up complaining

 

[chrysostom]

lent makes me uncomfortable
and
it always has
but
I don't understand
why
it makes you uncomfortable

 

[brewmama]

Except when people change that verse to read we are to work for our salvation, and then they do not acknowledge the fact that our "good works" can't save us. So, first you have to make sure you aren't changing the text to suit your works salvation belief, and then a dialogue can begin.

No one is changing the text, and no one is discounting the work Christ did. No one. There was never a dichotomy between works and faith for the first 1500 years of the Church. Everyone realized what grace and faith do, and what else is expected of us. So it's just a rather bizarre misinterpretation of what you think people are saying.

 

[brewmama]

Flesh.

What does that mean?

Then Lent should be a year-round thing.

Why? There are times for preparation, and times for celebration. Why would you throw all that out the window?

I'm convinced He disapproves because, by your own testimony, you are disapproved in your unbelief.

No, that's your interpretation, and it's a bizarre one.

Lent seeks (at best) to add to the finished work of Christ. Not that any of you have the sense to realize that. None of you really believes His work for you is finished. Most of you refuse to avail yourself to the death of His Cross in the first place.

Instead, from what can be discerned from your own testimonies, almost all of you have believed false gospels. These make you very devoutly religious -- no one disputes or doubts that -- but leave you unjustified, unsaved and enemies of God. So all you're doing during Lent (and the other 325 days of the year) are nothing more than the filthy rags of worthless, Christ-less fleshwork that God will never accept from anyone.
Flesh cannot remedy or improve flesh. Monks flagellating themselves until they bleed, Philippino Catholics nailing themselves to crosses, and you giving up TV for Lent. It's all the same.

You are so quick to judge other people's salvation. Why do you have such a grudge? Why do you so vehemently ignore and condemn all the numerous exhortations in the Bible to become holy, follow Christ's demands, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ, to redeem the time, to abstain from evil, etc etc etc?
We are not telling you you should do the things we do (although we may wonder why you scorn them) but you are so quick to tell us what we should or should not do. I personally would never have myself nailed to a cross, but why would you condemn someone who loves the Lord so much that he wants to share in His suffering? Why is that considered "evil"?

 

[brewmama]

1 Corinthians 16

22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

Galatians 1

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

When somebody is instructed, and shown over and over and over, just how many times should it go on before rebuke is handed out?

Acts 13

8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

As John W says, the book is full of details. Peter restored sight in Israel. Paul blinded them. It's not hard to see the symbolism.

And yet another example of someone quoting things that have absolutely no bearing on the conversation, or on my own motives or feelings. How can you possibly presume to know that I "don't love the Lord"? Or that I have a "false Gospel"? And you have offered no instruction at all. Your arguments don't apply and fall flat. I am in the Church that Paul began, and I am not the one changing the Gospel. Rebuke away if it makes you feel better, but it does not become you.

 

[Nick M]

I gave up complaining

I'll take your portion. And K of C had battered catfish and cold Budweiser for me tonight.

 

[musterion]

You are so quick to judge other people's salvation.

What must we do to be saved?

Tell the truth as you believe it.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Granted, a much greater percent of adult Catholics are sincere Christians than the adult members of most other Christian denominations.

I disagree.

:shocked:

However, the fact remains that Catholics (Episcopalians and Church of England as well) only fast during Lent according to the established guidelines because of tradition.

Any additional motives are tainted by this.

And traditions are certainly not all bad. Paul tells us to hold fast to them. You seem to have a distorted view of tradition.

No, Paul told us to hold fast to the traditions He taught, and Paul did not teach observance of Lent.

 

[musterion]

For all her protestations that she's Orthodox, BM sounds more informedly Catholic than most of the Catholics on TOL.

 

[genuineoriginal]

D, fasting for the sake of tradition, is what Catholics do during Lent.

Prove it.

How do you know that?

It is easily proven and I know it by one simple fact.

Only denominations that follow the Catholic traditions fast for Lent.

If you want to counter that proof, please show me the names of the denominations that do not follow the Catholic traditions that fast for Lent.

 

[genuineoriginal]

All of this "me and my Bible" individualistic Christianity is so far removed from anything resembling the church.

No, it is far removed from anything resembling the Roman Catholic traditions.

It is much closer to what God desires from us because it is closer to His word than the traditions of the Roman Catholic denomination.