Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Word based mystic]

But, the soul of man cannot die. Had that been the end of Adam's transgression, in the literal sense, Adam and Eve would never have been ejected from the garden. There would have been no need to.

too many scriptures point to the unredeemed/wicked shall be destroyed.

they are described in contrast as corruptible, perishable.
to perish apollumi = to utterly destroy

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

soul and body in context with (kill) and (destroy)

i am open to any convincing argument with much support scripturally that the soul is immortal or eternal or never ending or never perish or dies.

I have only found the opposite with much thematic and scriptural support.

 

[Cross Reference]

a voice crying in the wilderness crying out __ help me help me !! I can't see:chrysost:

 

[Word based mystic]

the reason God seemed to eject adam and eve was to not allow them to access/partake of eternal life.

especially in that state of misery and decay

thus God did not desire man to have never ending life in that sinful state.
His plan was to either have them receive eternal life through Christ or after resurrection/judgement those not being found in book of (life) shall perish, or destruction in a permanent/eternal fashion.
eternal life being the reward
eternal destruction or 2nd death (wages of sin) is the punishment of wicked

 

[Cross Reference]

too many scriptures point to the unredeemed/wicked shall be destroyed.

they are described in contrast as corruptible, perishable.
to perish apollumi = to utterly destroy

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

soul and body in context with (kill) and (destroy)

i am open to any convincing argument with much support scripturally that the soul is immortal or eternal or never ending or never perish or dies.

I have only found the opposite with much thematic and scriptural support.

I would say the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, would a good place to start. Lu 16:20-25.

In speaking of eternity:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 (KJV)

In contrast that intimates what except, everlasting death? And why not, given why we were redeemed.

 

[jamie]

based on what?

Based on Satan' lie. To this day people believe Satan instead of God.

 

[Word based mystic]

I would say the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, would a good place to start. Lu 16:20-25.

obviously prior to judgement day and 2nd death.

for in revelation 21
rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.

 

[Word based mystic]

also in revelation 22

no more curse exists
There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they [d]will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

no more night.

new heaven and earth is where righteous dwells implying no more sin, decay, corruption.

 

[Cross Reference]

the reason God seemed to eject adam and eve was to not allow them to access/partake of eternal life.

Indeed, but, why? Could it be they would have become as God is but, in a fallen state that could never be redeemed and in eternal collision with Satan.

especially in that state of misery and decay

What misery and decay?

thus God did not desire man to have never ending life in that sinful state.

Indeed again, He didn't. Ergo the necessity of proving Adam and, lest we forget, Jesus.

His plan was to either have them receive eternal life through Christ or after resurrection/judgement those not being found in book of (life) shall perish, or destruction in a permanent/eternal fashion.
eternal life being the reward
eternal destruction or 2nd death (wages of sin) is the punishment of wicked

But, physically perish?? Twice??

"Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. Isaiah 51:11 (KJV)

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:22-24 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

obviously prior to judgement day and 2nd death.

Forever, is forever. It doesn't mean something else. So why presume when there is no reason to, no cause that it serves.

I edited my last posts.

 

[Cross Reference]

also in revelation 22

no more curse exists
There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they [d]will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

no more night.

new heaven and earth is where righteous dwells implying no more sin, decay, corruption.

But it is speaking of Heaven and Earth __ not Hell.

 

[Cross Reference]

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life [presence of God] maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mark 9:42-43 (KJV)

 

[Word based mystic]

Indeed, but, why? Could it be they would have become as God is but, in a fallen state that could never be redeemed and in eternal collision with Satan.

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

a soul that is indestructible and imperishable has eternal life.

there would have been no need to stop them from accessing eternal life if the soul is immortal.

the reward is eternal life.

But, physically perish?? Twice??

resurrected for judgement and then the punishment (2nd death) is totality both body and soul this time.

ergo. matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[Cross Reference]

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, now it was eternally separated from God. It was not, as yet, "one of Us and live forever"for which now needed that only Jesus Christ could provide for 4000 yrs later.

a soul that is indestructible and imperishable has eternal life.

. . . and the fire never quenches for that one who is not reconciled to God, who is cast into hell.

there would have been no need to stop them from accessing eternal life if the soul is immortal.

. . only if they had never transgressed, you are correct. But they did transgress, now what?

the reward is eternal life.

It would have been more than that and there would have been no need for redeeming mankind to make it happen.

Why not ponder the effects of what a problem it would posed for God had He allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life, to become as He is, in his fallen state? Think about it for the various impositions it would have had on God in having to deal with something equal to Himself but with an opposing eternal purpose He could not defeat..

resurrected for judgement and then the punishment (2nd death) is totality both body and soul this time.

So man enjoys a "soul sleep", is then awakened only to die again? Why?? What would be the point in that?

ergo. matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

OK. That is to do with fearing God?

Why do believe the suicide victim chooses his way?

 

[Word based mystic]

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, now it was eternally separated from God. It was not, as yet, "one of Us and live forever"for which now needed that only Jesus Christ could provide for 4000 yrs later.

. . . and the fire never quenches for that one who is not reconciled to God, who is cast into hell.

yes the fire does not stop it is eternal who or what fire has that type of character? from what mouth does it come? Who is an all consuming fire? is anything other than God have never ending existence?

. . only if they had never transgressed, you are correct. But they did transgress, now what?

resurrection and judgement for the display of justice and the punishment is the wages of sin (death) perish. cease to exist ezekiel 28:18

It would have been more than that and there would have been no need for redeeming mankind to make it happen.

Why not ponder the effects of what a problem it would posed for God had He allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life, to become as He is, in his fallen state? Think about it for the various impositions it would have had on God in having to deal with something equal to Himself but with an opposing eternal purpose He could not defeat..

that is a consideration but is a speculative conundrum.
But being God the Father and Spirit He is not subject to His creation/time and matter. And with a simple thought could cease to exist any of created matter or beings.
None of His created beings could be equal or infinite.
especially since all of (creation) subsists, exists and is held together by His power and could not exist on its own if power is withdrawn.

So man enjoys a "soul sleep", is then awakened only to die again? Why?? What would be the point in that?

judgement and justice and an example to angelic beings the punishment for the wicked. thus by negative example men give judgement to powers and principalities.
also to reinforce and validate to the condemned/judged person as to the reason for 2nd death to perish and destruction.

OK. That is to do with fearing God?

ahh fullness of the rest of that scripture shows what will happen to those that end up in hell. specifically the body and soul will ultimately be destroyed and killed.

Why do believe the suicide victim chooses his way?

to cease the pain of his existence i assume.
if a suicide victim fully understood punishment as never ending torment i am sure if the person was reasonable and sane that person would repent.

 

[way 2 go]

the only kingdom that is described in scripture as (never ending) is the kingdom of God and if you are in Christ you are imperishable and indestructible. quite the opposite of the wicked who are perishible and destructible.
scripture does show that their will be suffering as the fire burns and destroys to the end of the soul perishing. this happens till the end of the age. not never ending. forever = aion till the end of the age.

are they both eternal or both temporal ?
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

you imply the dead are not really dead. hmmmm nice add on.

not implied it is fact
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

specifically talking about unbelievers during that time and relating to living people as a simile.

Jesus refers to living unbelievers as dead, nice to see you got that

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

these scriptures prove the point of punishment as being death not life.
revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more

((death is no more)) what happened to it??

Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

and what happens to those thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

What is the penalty for sin?

thrown into the lake of fire


Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

and what happens to those thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Timotheos]

But if all that happens to punish those who go against a Holy and notoriously vengeful God is that He simply puts them out of their misery before they can be punished, is that justice? Just a swift Coupe de Grace so as to avoid their punishment? Do you know God to do such a thing?

Your mistake is equating "being completely destroyed" with "avoiding punishment". You must have a very low view of eternal life. Did you completely forget that God's Word says "the wages of sin is death", "the wicked shall perish and will be no more", "their end is destruction", "They will be burnt up like chaff", etc etc etc throughout the Bible???

You ask "Do I know of God to do such a thing?" Actually, I do.
The Bible says (In both Peter's AND Jude's letters) that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an EXAMPLE of the coming punishment of the wicked. So it is completely undeniable by any reasonable person, the wicked will be destroyed on the Day of Destruction of the UnGodly and they will not be given eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever while they are dead.

Jamie asked "What is the penalty for sin?

What is the penalty for sin?

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

Mr Way2go says the penalty for sin is to be thrown into the lake of fire. I think he is saying that the person tossed in there will inherit eternal life in the flames. No, the Bible specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, so this agrees with the Bible passage that says that the wages of sin is death.

 

[Aimiel]

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

Did you forget that also, according to The Bible, after death comes judgment?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Why should any judgment be necessary if men who die are going to be raised from the dead just to be put to death? Simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Cross Reference]

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, not as God intended for Adam and his progeny. it was now eternally inaccessible, made so by Adam's disobedience. It could not be, "one of Us and live forever [as one of Us]". The way was guarded by the Angel which now only Jesus Christ could provide access but, 4000 yrs later and by our "overcoming" as Jesus overcame and by the way He did it, i.e., dying to self..

yes the fire does not stop it is eternal who or what fire has that type of character? from what mouth does it come? Who is an all consuming fire? is anything other than God have never ending existence?

God is a "Consuming fire", however, His Fire is an activity of the Holy Spirit by the Baptism of Jesus Christ [Pentecost] designed to consume anything in the life of Christian [disciple] that is contrary to the indwelling Life of the Word of the Son of God resulting in Paul saying this: "I live by the Faith of the Son OF God" Gal.2:20 KJV.

resurrection and judgement for the display of justice and the punishment is the wages of sin (death) perish. cease to exist ezekiel 28:18

You still have handle the passages I have cited. Where do they fit it into your thinking this through?

that is a consideration but is a speculative conundrum.

Not at all, if you remember that Jesus was/is called the second Adam and we make the comparison to see how God desired for Adam to perform that would have made the future redemption of man, unnecessary.

But being God the Father and Spirit He is not subject to His creation/time and matter. And with a simple thought could cease to exist any of created matter or beings.

Not if He decreed a thing. Again, an absolute here, even the king cannot reverse his own decrees. That, I believe, is why we have the book of Esther that reveals that fact. That is also why Rom 1 is so important, as Paul spoke of reprobation being by decree as David defined it per Ps 29:1 KJV; Rom 1:28 KJV.

None of His created beings could be equal or infinite.

What if they are born from above?? Created in Christ?? His Body?? Progeny of the Holy Spirit?

especially since all of (creation) subsists, exists and is held together by His power and could not exist on its own if power is withdrawn.

That is meant to be understood for the here and now, not eternity.

judgement and justice and an example to angelic beings the punishment for the wicked. thus by negative example men give judgement to powers and principalities.
also to reinforce and validate to the condemned/judged person as to the reason for 2nd death to perish and destruction.

????? Too convoluted for me to grasp.

ahh fullness of the rest of that scripture shows what will happen to those that end up in hell. specifically the body and soul will ultimately be destroyed and killed.

Did not God have a soul? Is it perishable? Were we not created in His image?

to cease the pain of his existence i assume.

Hell is where God isn't. Everything in opposition to His Love will reside there. Hell was setup for the devil and his angels. Man will go there by his own volition __ without remedy or appeal.

if a suicide victim fully understood punishment as never ending torment i am sure if the person was reasonable and sane that person would repent.

How can you be sure?? What hope is there for the one who, to the end and against all reason, says: "I will have no God over me"? Is not that the example given us in Rom 1:28 KJV of those who did?

 

[Word based mystic]

are they both eternal or both temporal ?
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

once again what is the punishment?? it is the 2nd death, to perish. matthew 10:28

not implied it is fact

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

yup that death with men started in adam He died spiritually
his soul no longer can attain eternal/imperishable/incorruptible status unless in Christ.
pretty simple

Jesus refers to living unbelievers as dead, nice to see you got that

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

always have. you however don't understand that the wages of sin is death


Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.[/QUOTE]

yup forever = aion NOT ((never ending))
cease to be forever even happens to lucifer
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))"'"