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Could it be, WBM, you are missing what the word death implies in all this? You mentioned Adam dying a Spiritual death. Why not consider that spiritual death is a different kind of dying? One that cannot end.
Could it be, WBM, you are missing what the word death implies in all this? You mentioned Adam dying a Spiritual death. Why not consider that spiritual death is a different kind of dying? One that cannot end.
I'm sure that it doesn't make sense To You.
The dead are resurrected so that they can stand before Jesus Christ for Judgment. After that they are sentenced to death or given eternal life.
You are taking the Hebrews passage out of context. It isn't saying that there isn't a second death for sinners. If it were, the Bible would not talk about the second death. Read the context.
Now here is what doesn't make sense to me about your view. If bad people go to hell when they die where they are eternally tormented, why would God resurrect them from eternal torment and then send them back to hell for a second round of eternal conscious torment? Why would God bother to do that? For that matter, why would God send them to eternal conscious torment the first time, since they would not have been sentenced to eternal conscious torment until after Judgment Day? Does your God sentence people to eternal conscious torment without a trial of any kind?
Since this justification for eternal torment didn't work, why don't you try to think up a different justification for believing the doctrine that you want to believe? Or you could simply believe what the Bible says, as I do.
Some clues --
Goats do not refer to all the unsaved.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
consider EZ.ch 34
and--
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
LA
Goats do not refer to all the unsaved.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
consider EZ.ch 34
and--
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
LA
Word based mystic
New member
will discuss when possible. this is my busy season.
much to consider with that perspective.
are all souls imperishable and indestructible.
is the first death in the garden and spiritual death of the spirit not soul.
is the 2nd death the soul and body in totality after judgement. matt 10:28
words like perish [appollumi] to totally destroy, utterly destroy.
words like destruction
cease to be forever.
will the new heaven and earth have hell and the grave in it.
what is the function of the eternal fire
what or who is the fire or aspect of the fire.
considering that modern christians redefine (forever) to mean never ending.
the new heaven and earth that will be shall have righteousness. does that mean no death, sin, wickedness exists.
mainly though is it in the heavenly fathers character to be a torturer for his created children that chose the freewill option to not follow Christ. with never putting the wicked out of their misery after judgement and punishment of death.
could any father knowingly create or birth a child with the intent to torture without end if they are not obedient?
death being the punishment is conducive to His being merciful even in the midst of his judgement. psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))
Aimiel
Well-known member
I know that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where Satan, the 'beast' or Anti-Christ (who is a man, possessed by Satan) and the false prophet (who is a man also) will be tormented forever as well as all those whose names were not found in The Lamb's Book of Life is called: "The Second Death," but also realize that eternal conscious torment in said lake is not life.
Life = "the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death"
Certainly those who are in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone have no capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity or even change of any kind. That condition being referred to as 'death' is no stretch of the imagination. Thinking The Lord Himself would describe the eternal torments of that lake only to make a story more pointed or to frighten someone IS a wicked stretch of the imagination. Jesus told us what hell is like and what the Lake of Fire and Brimstone is like so that we know the Truth of the matter, not so that we might try to explain it way with conjecture or use His Own Words against His Teachings so that we could appease our consciences.
Hell is not eternal torment. It is the domain of Satan. He was given the keys to this world by Adam. Christ now has those keys, but in order to escape Satan's dominion, one must first have faith in Christ. Those who don't are his puppets, even after death. When Satan is un-seated at judgment and men are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the real torment begins. Hell indeed is torture, but nothing can be compared to what is in store for them in the Lake.
You'll have to ask Him. He's The One Who said it, I just believe His Word. I don't doubt that what He said will come to pass.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Because they're playing for the wrong team.
God is just. Those who enter hell upon death know they belong there, just as those who have faith in Christ know they belong in Heaven. The only difference is The Blood of Jesus and the word of their testimony.
There is no escaping the justification for eternal conscious torment. Those who've sinned deserve their fate, or God wouldn't give it to them.
I believe Scripture. That makes one of us. You have crossed out the verses you don't believe. I believe ALL of Them.
Cross Reference
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I believe you are going in the wrong direction with your questions. For instance, you should know that death is not a punishment but a, consequence. The consequence of not realizing that will only result in making foolish accusations against God ang a total inability to think through other issues. I would "repent".
Cross Reference
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But the consequence of being one is the same __maybe worse.
Word based mystic
New member
aimiel
Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd death
you ignore much scripture and change many definitions
like perish
destroyed
cease to be forever
change the meaning of forever to be never ending
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.
ignore the purpose of fire
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to do
your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossible for death is a being like the angels
ignore the end of lucifer in ezekiel 28:18
ignore the many scriptures that state the wicked shall perish and or vanish away after being burned up. psalms multiple.
ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.
you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd death
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.
no father would create a child and give them free will and then if the free will to go their own way was taken then that child is chained up in the barn and kept alive with no end in sight and tortured
sick
sick
not the heart of a father let alone a God whom (psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))
reshaping the word meaning of (death) is what the ect people do with forever
they take the definition out of modern english not greek or hebrew. you have used a modern (changed) definition of death while the hebrew word is [thanatoo] to kill (like matt 10:28 Jesus describes) also (become dead) (put to death) and especially related to (mortality) thus the greek definitions
you add. and expound to this very clear definition. sadly like most using modern english meanings of words to change the hebrew/greek meanings to accommodate ECT never ending Torment by a fatherly figure.
life in greek defined as (zao) a verb reflecting (to live) also a (life time) get that time thing related to this world point to the age of relating to this material world.
all your add on conditions are not there and are obtained from some science dictionary or modern english dictionary and does NOT prove your point.
Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd death
you ignore much scripture and change many definitions
like perish
destroyed
cease to be forever
change the meaning of forever to be never ending
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.
ignore the purpose of fire
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to do
your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossible for death is a being like the angels
ignore the end of lucifer in ezekiel 28:18
ignore the many scriptures that state the wicked shall perish and or vanish away after being burned up. psalms multiple.
ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.
you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd death
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.
no father would create a child and give them free will and then if the free will to go their own way was taken then that child is chained up in the barn and kept alive with no end in sight and tortured
sick
sick
not the heart of a father let alone a God whom (psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))
reshaping the word meaning of (death) is what the ect people do with forever
they take the definition out of modern english not greek or hebrew. you have used a modern (changed) definition of death while the hebrew word is [thanatoo] to kill (like matt 10:28 Jesus describes) also (become dead) (put to death) and especially related to (mortality) thus the greek definitions
you add. and expound to this very clear definition. sadly like most using modern english meanings of words to change the hebrew/greek meanings to accommodate ECT never ending Torment by a fatherly figure.
life in greek defined as (zao) a verb reflecting (to live) also a (life time) get that time thing related to this world point to the age of relating to this material world.
all your add on conditions are not there and are obtained from some science dictionary or modern english dictionary and does NOT prove your point.
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Cross Reference
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Are you an SDA?
I haven't crossed out any verses. That is a strong accusation and should be backed up by strong proof. Which verses do you think that I don't believe? Be specific, since you are making such a bold statement.
The fact is that YOU have crossed out the verses that YOU don't believe. Here is a list of verses that you don't believe.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't believe that the penalty for sin is death but rather eternal living torment in hell. You don't believe that eternal life is a gift from God, you believe eternal life is an automatic perk of being human.
John 3:16
You don't believe that the lost really will perish just as John 3:16 says.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction..."
You don't believe that the penalty is destruction.
Luke 13:3
"Unless you repent, you will likewise perish".
You don't believe that those who refuse to repent will perish.
Matthew 3:12
"He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
You don't believe that the chaff will be burnt up.
Philippians 3:19
"Their destiny is destruction".
You don't believe that their destiny is destruction but eternal living torment instead.
Ezekiel 18:4
"The soul who sins shall die"
You don't believe that the soul CAN even die. You believe that the soul who sins will not die but will live forever in hell being tormented alive.
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."
You don't believe that God gives us eternal life, you believe that everyone already automatically has eternal life. You don't believe that eternal life is in God's Son, since you believe that those who reject Christ also have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever and you do not believe that whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Greek: Gehenna)
You don't believe that the body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna.
Psalm 37:20
"The wicked will perish"
You believe that the wicked will not perish, but will live forever in hell being tormented.
Psalm 37:10
"The wicked will be no more"
You don't believe that the wicked will be no more, you believe that they will continue to be conscious forever and in torment in hell, directly contradicting what the Bible specifically says.
Psalm 37:38
"The wicked will be altogether destroyed".
You believe the opposite of this, that the wicked will be preserved alive forever in hell being tormented alive forever.
The fact is that I believe all of the Bible, and you do not. The Bible specifically agrees with what I am saying and the Bible does not agree with your doctrine in any passage.
Here is what I believe, followed by what the Bible says:
The wicked will perish. Psalm 37:20 "the wicked will perish".
The wicked will be no more. Psalm 37:10 "the wicked will be no more".
The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23a "the wages of sin is death".
Eternal life is a gift from God given only to those who are in Christ. Romans 6:23b "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Why don't you give up your false doctrine of torture which doesn't have any support in Scripture and believe the gospel message that eternal life is only found in Christ? Wouldn't it be better to be found on Judgment Day believing the Word of God rather than rejecting it?
Are you a Muslim?
Aimiel
Well-known member
I never said He didn't. Hell is a spirit, just like Death is a spirit. They both must be punished. That doesn't mean that they are annihilated, which isn't Scriptural, it just means they're tormented forever, just like all the rest of the wicked.
I don't.
What if God allows flesh to regenerate so that those in torment can feel it being destroyed by flames and worms again and again and again (ad infinitum)? Are they perishing? Are they being tormented by flames and worms forever, just like The Bible says? Yep. And perishing forever, just like The Bible says, also? Yep.
Yep. Burned up. Regenerated, burned up, regenerated, burned up... etc., etc., etc...
They're not in Heaven (or even the New Heaven or New Earth) they're not found any more in the land of the living.
Aren't they already synonymous?
God desires that no one sin. He desired that angels should never sin. He desires many things that never happen. He will also cry at the judgment of every single soul. Who can wipe away His Tears?
I ignore nothing.
It was designed for torment, as The Bible says.
It isn't my idea. However, I fail to see what you mean.
Again, I don't get your point.
Why should we remember those who hate God? Those who chose death have it, for eternity.
I don't have to. God is just. He isn't JUST a Lamb. He is The God of Vengeance.
God cannot take pleasure in anyone's torment. Trust me. It breaks His Heart, even the torment of Satan. Thinking that He takes ANY pleasure in ANY pain is sick.
Word based mystic
New member
fire designed to destroy and consume and to cause to perish and kill
pretty clear.
torment is the after affect of the destruction
and will be heard till the end of the age.
if death is a being which lives eternally just in hell how can the eternal fire cause death to be (NO MORE)
forever is not and never was synonymous with never ending.
you refuse to see the definition as it is. (till the end of the age)
you speak of the fire as burning and then regenerating where is that
that is reincarnation
and the fire utterly destroys both body and soul thus the definition of perish appollumi to utterly destroy.
pretty clear.
torment is the after affect of the destruction
and will be heard till the end of the age.
if death is a being which lives eternally just in hell how can the eternal fire cause death to be (NO MORE)
forever is not and never was synonymous with never ending.
you refuse to see the definition as it is. (till the end of the age)
you speak of the fire as burning and then regenerating where is that
that is reincarnation
and the fire utterly destroys both body and soul thus the definition of perish appollumi to utterly destroy.
Word based mystic
New member
your idea of constant regeneration in the lake of fire contradicts you definition of death which has no life and regenerative properties.
this is not an episode of heroes where claire the cheerleader can regenerate after being destroyed.
only God resurrects someone and to life and regeneration
and you agree there will be no more life in eternal fire
i added a bit to my first post earlier this am
this is not an episode of heroes where claire the cheerleader can regenerate after being destroyed.
only God resurrects someone and to life and regeneration
and you agree there will be no more life in eternal fire
i added a bit to my first post earlier this am
Aimiel
Well-known member
Not when the sole purpose of the re-generation of said flesh is so that it can be burned and eaten again and again and again.
God created hell for the devil and his angels. I believe He knows what He's doing, whether anyone on earth does or not.
Word based mystic
New member
yes and you can't show me where the soul has the power to regenerate
which by the way is a definition of life or eternal life.
or also a power of resurrection.
or reincarnation.
so do the wicked have eternal life or are they destined to perish
matt 10:28 destroy the body and soul
also in context with (kill)
are you saying God cant do what He says He will do?
which is to utterly destroy the soul of the wicked perish (appollumi)
that the wicked soul is immortal and has eternal life/regeneration/resurrection
Aimiel
Well-known member
What little we know of hell shows me that it is either this or worms don't actually eat flesh, they just chew on it and flames don't actually destroy flesh, they just torment it; either way: it takes place. The rich man in hell was able to speak to Abraham, so I imagine one or the other is taking place right now.
They perish, for eternity, in agony of flames.
Are you?
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Cross Reference
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And you ignore Jesus' own words that need no interpretation: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43 (KJV)
Do something with that instead of ignoring it like it isn't there for us to take as being what the lake of fire will be like?
Again I ask, are you an SDA?
