Jesus vs the Pharisees

[Tambora]

Romans 5​

(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​

(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

If you are relying on your righteousness and obedience then you are relying on the righteousness and obedience of the wrong one.

 

[Gary K]

Okay.

No denomination that I have ever heard of teaches that foot washing replaced Passover.

The RCC basically claims to be the continuation of Israel. They are liars and thieves.

Yes, they are.

The day of atonement is the fulfillment of Israel's forgiveness of sins.

Perhaps you were unaware that Jesus is coming back again to complete the remaining fulfillment of these feasts.

Indeed, it's fulfillment is yet future.

This feast will be fulfilled when Israel gets all of their land forever. It is yet future.

Note also that these feasts are all related to Israel and their relationship with their Messiah. The body of Christ is something different.

That was bad wording on my part.How do you figure Israel is going to be saved? They rejected the Messiah.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You might read a book by Henry Milman who was the doctor doctor to King George the third, I believe it was anyway, who wrote the Antiquities of the Jews, and Flavious Josephus's book The Wars of the Jews. The Jews by AD 70 were basically insane. The killed each other relentlessly and had as their leaders men who were nothing but bandit chiefs during the seige of Jerusalem. They so infuriated the Roman soldiers that they would not listen to Titus and murdered thousands of Jews in their blood lust of battle. The bandit chiefs destroyed on another and set fire to storehouses of grain. That's why so many people died of famine inside Jerusalem. That's what happens when we turn away from God as we are then completely under the control of the devil. We eventually become insane. It's also why the Jews have been persecuted in every place they have lived as the devil hates humanity and is out to destroy us. So how can they as a nation be saved? They can be saved just like we Gentiles as the Holy Spirit works on us as individuals.

 

[Gary K]

His commandments...
They are: love God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
And love your neighbor as you want them to love you.

OK.
Jesus saw, and illustrated, the end of Law keeping before He even died.

I have no problem with that as it's actually the basics of the 10 commandments.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

How is it that you think it is easier to love others as yourself than to keep the 10 commandments?

The command to love God supremely was given in the OT\

Deu_6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

As it is impossible to love others if we don't love God supremely both commandments were given in the OT.

 

[Gary K]

Romans 5​

(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​

(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

If you are relying on your righteousness and obedience then you are relying on the righteousness and obedience of the wrong one.

I disagree.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If we are breaking no law as Paul says we will not through the power of the HS how are we breaking the 10 commandments? Notice the fruit of the Spirit obviates both definitions of breaking the law?

Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Derf]

No. We just aren't following in God's footsteps.

You think God forgives those who do not repent? Can you give me a bible verse for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, because there's a specific category where I think it applies, but please show me a verse.

 

[Gary K]

You think God forgives those who do not repent? Can you give me a bible verse for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, because there's a specific category where I think it applies, but please show me a verse.

How are we being kind by not enforcing punishment for crime? That encourages more crime, thus more pain and suffering. Do you call that loving others?

 

[Derf]

How are we being kind by not enforcing punishment for crime? That encourages more crime, thus more pain and suffering. Do you call that loving others?

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I said that we are more merciful than God when we forgive the unrepentant, which indeed leads to more crime, pain and suffering.

But that's what our society wants to do--forgive the unrepentant. Which is unloving.

 

[Gary K]

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I said that we are more merciful than God when we forgive the unrepentant, which indeed leads to more crime, pain and suffering.

But that's what our society wants to do--forgive the unrepentant. Which is unloving.

I agree. I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[Hoping]

I have no problem with that as it's actually the basics of the 10 commandments.

It sure is.

How is it that you think it is easier to love others as yourself than to keep the 10 commandments?

They are the same thing so neither is "easier".
Now, in the NT, the repentant walk in and after the Spirit instead of in and after the flesh.
So it is actually easier if one is actually walking in the Spirit.

The command to love God supremely was given in the OT

Agreed, and quoted by the apostles in the NT.

As it is impossible to love others if we don't love God supremely both commandments were given in the OT.

Yep.
The actions of others towards their fellow men makes it easy to distinguish the Christians from the non-Christians.

 

[Hoping]

You think God forgives those who do not repent? Can you give me a bible verse for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, because there's a specific category where I think it applies, but please show me a verse.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, (Luke 23:34), and Stephen forgave those who stoned him, (Acts 7:60)
However, all the other sins of those murderers will still be held against them if they don't convert.

 

[Gary K]

It sure is.

They are the same thing so neither is "easier".
Now, in the NT, the repentant walk in and after the Spirit instead of in and after the flesh.
So it is actually easier if one is actually walking in the Spirit.

Agreed, and quoted by the apostles in the NT.

Yep.
The actions of others towards their fellow men makes it easy to distinguish the Christians from the non-Christians.

I'm glad we're agreed on this.

 

[Right Divider]

How do you figure Israel is going to be saved?

By turning back to and believing in their Messiah.

Rom 11:26-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

They rejected the Messiah.

And? Does this permanently disqualify them?

You might read a book ...

You might want to spend less time reading those books and spend more time studying the Bible.

 

[Gary K]

By turning back to and believing in their Messiah.

Rom 11:26-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And? Does this permanently disqualify them?

You might want to spend less time reading those books and spend more time studying the Bible.

Jesus told them their house was left to them desolate.

Ever heard of conditional prophecies?

Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Jon 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus told them their house was left to them desolate.

Ever heard of conditional prophecies?

So you disagree with Paul?

I assume that you think Israel has been done away with...

That is wrong, if you do.

Paul repeatedly makes it clear that they will be restored.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

The "receiving" is yet future.

The new Jerusalem makes this crystal clear as well.

Rev 21:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 

[Gary K]

So you disagree with Paul?

I assume that you think Israel has been done away with...

That is wrong, if you do.

Paul repeatedly makes it clear that they will be restored.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

The "receiving" is yet future.

The new Jerusalem makes this crystal clear as well.

Rev 21:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

I agree with Jesus and all the Bible. Paul is not the only source of truth.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree with Jesus and all the Bible. Paul is not the only source of truth.

So you admit that Paul is a source of truth and that you disagree with him.
Why did you completely ignore the scripture that I quoted?
Never mind, I know already.

 

[Gary K]

So you admit that Paul is a source of truth and that you disagree with him.
Why did you completely ignore the scripture that I quoted?
Never mind, I know already.

Yes, Paul is a source of truth. So is Jonah. Jesus is the source of truth.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, Paul is a source of truth.

Yes, and you disagree with Paul who is a source of truth.
Again, why did you completely ignore the scripture that I quoted?
Never mind, I know already.

 

[steko]

I agree with Jesus and all the Bible. Paul is not the only source of truth.

But, Paul is Jesus' handpicked apostle to and for the nations/gentiles in this 2000 year dispensation/economy.

 

[Gary K]

But, Paul is Jesus' handpicked apostle to and for the nations/gentiles in this 2000 year dispensation/economy.

What does that have to do with it? Does that make Jesus any less than He is? I don't think so. If you want to believe so have at it, but I will not,