You have never called me a liar on this thread? You don't consider calling someone a liar an insult? That's odd. I've never known of anyone who doesn't consider it an insult.
Jesus vs the Pharisees
- Thread starter Gary K
- Start date
What does this have to do with the covenant God made between Himself and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants?
I'm not going to answer your every comment as it's too hard for me to type.You apparently reject Paul's entire ministry.
Quote, please, where we have rejected Scripture.
What does this have to do with anything?
Begging the question is a logical fallacy.
And yet, God is completely willing to take Israel back.
Uh, no, that's not our "response."
Our "response" is that Paul explicitly states, and John elaborates, that Israel WILL IN FACT be taken back by God, at the end of days.
Haven't you ever read the Bible?
Was that not the entire purpose of the Cross? So that no matter how evil someone could become, they could still be redeemed to God?
Yup. And?
The people who killed Jesus are dead and gone, and maybe you forgot what Jesus said when He was on the cross?
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
They didn't realize that they played right into His plan to save the world!
Sounds like it's no longer an issue for God.
The only sin Israel is guilty of currently is rejection of her Messiah.
Once they repent of that, God is more than willing to take her back.
There's even entire books in the Bible about how God longs to take her back!
No, we have never thought that.
They will be saved, when they turn back to God.
That's not "against their will," by definition!
Jesus is THE source of Truth, for He is Truth.
Jesus called Paul. That makes Paul a secondary source of truth, one through which THE Truth is delivered.
The problem with such threads is that they focus on the wrong aspect of Christ's ministry to Israel, trying to apply the things meant specifically for Israel during the Time of Jacob's Trouble (AKA Great Tribulation) to the Body of Christ. Much of the discussion then becomes MADists trying to correct the faulty premises on which the original post was made, which means that Paul's letters are brought up, because if there was no change in dispensation, then there's no need for Paul, and in fact, none of what Paul says makes sense in much of the context of what Jesus taught during His earthly ministry, and it usually continues on that topic for a while, then the thread gets old and dies, or it peters out very quickly.
In order to understand what Jesus said, you need to know the context, and that includes the events surrounding His life, both before and after He died, up to at least 30 years afterwards.
But most people don't, because they haven't been taught those things, and don't have the big picture overview like MADists do.
Do remember that we couldn't bring all the old threads over when we switched to XenForo. A lot of old threads were lost.
That being said...
There are more than enough threads besides yours that do exist that talk about Christ.
Try reading.
As RD has pointed out multiple times to you now:
I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 4:14-15 - New King James Version
Paul’s Paternal Care - I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.www.biblegateway.com
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:31-11:3 - New King James Version
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Worship and...www.biblegateway.com
Who's the one really rejecting scripture here, Gary?
Why do you assume we don't?
Why do you think there haven't been?
To me, posting a thread praising Christ seems rather... self-serving.
By that, I mean, "Hey, look at me! I'm praising Christ! I must be a really good Christian! Give me likes!"
I think what RD said above suffices here: So you don't know what we believe, yet you criticise it for being wrong?
How does that make any sense?
So what?
If that was anything but a complete compliment, you're a hypocrite.
So you'll praise Paul consistently but praising your Savior is too self serving?
It was said by God to a Jew about Jews
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Do you somehow think that this passage means that God has disposed of Israel?
It does not. Keep reading more of Jeremiah:
Jer 30:4-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(30:4) ¶ And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. (30:5) For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. (30:6) Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? (30:7) Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (30:8) For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: (30:9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
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Where have I "praised Paul"?
And?
Was God talking about His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants?
Or was He talking about something else?
I don't expect you to respond to everything I say.
But I do expect you to respond to the challenges I make against your position. ESPECIALLY when you accuse us of rejecting scripture.
So please, answer this.
Or retract the claim.
Remember, bearing false witness is a sin.
Quit being lazy, and respond to the points made against you.
When I have quoted Jeremiah 18: 7-11 you have never responded and said you believed it or not and I have posted it 3 or 4 times. What else am I to think?
You know good and well that I disagree with your reading of scripture so what's the point of responding to them time and again?
That scripture was written in Jeremiah's day hundreds of years before the leaders of the Jewish nation murdered Jesus.
You quote him constantly to uphold your beliefs. If that isn't praise I don't know what is. In fact either you or RD quoted Paul saying follow me as I follow Christ.
I guess this is a good enough time to ask you a question along that line. Paul followed Jesus. He was willing to sacrifice his life doing it so that others could know Him. He suffered persecution and was finally martyred for his faith. He was kind and loving to those around him as we have no record of his ever being mean to anyone after his conversion. Do you follow Jesus like Paul did?
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So was the Jeremiah that I quoted... which is about the future when God will gather Israel in their land with the King.
Are you retracting your claim that we reject scripture or not?
Disagreeing with our reading of scripture is one thing.
RESPONDING with a rational rebuttal is another.
You have never done the latter.
And?
Yeah, you definitely don't know what praise is, then, because that's not praise.
Because that's what Paul said.
Do you reject Paul's command to follow him as he follows Christ? If so, you're the one rejecting scripture, not us!
It's not.
Not until you substantiate or retract your claim against us rejecting scripture.
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Because he is the Lord Jesus Christ's choice to be His messenger for today.
We praise his message, given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, I did... it's SCRIPTURE. Paul tells us to follow him AS HE FOLLOWS CHRIST.
Paul was given much NEW information about that Christ is doing. You seem to ignore this completely.
2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The NEW CREATURE is not about Jesus Christ in the flesh as a Jew.
Yes, but NOT in the way that the 12 apostles did.
We follow Paul per the doctrine that Christ gave him to preach. You are stuck in the past with doctrine that is for Israel and their nation.
So what do you call the following?
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. |
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CONTEXT!!
You have to remember what Jesus said about Himself:
Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
That is the CONTEXT of His entire earthly ministry.
Paul says the same about Him:
Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
That you ignore so many things is a big part of your problem.
What do you say to the following?
Mar 14:6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. Mar 14:8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. Mar 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. |
Is this said before of after Jesus died? And Jesus said wherever this gospel is preached Mary Magdalene's deed to honor Him would be told. Does that sound like Jesus thought there would be two gospels?
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Again, you show your confirmation bias. You cannot see anything because you refuse to see anything.
What is "THIS GOSPEL"?
There are MANY gospels in the Bible and not all of them are THIS GOSPEL.
Does it not make you wonder how the 12 apostles could preach the gospel of the kingdom for YEARS and yet not know that Christ would die?
Luke 9:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:6) And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)
(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
So did Jesus know there would be two gospels?
His disciples are a bad example as they never really understood the true nature of Jesus' kingdom until after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They were still so full of themselves they denied Jesus knew what He was talking about when He told them they would all deny Him the night before His crucifixion.
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. Mat 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. Mat 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Mat 26:35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples. Mat_26:35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples. |