way 2 go
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liar
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Jesus taught existence after death
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Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Dust + breath (Spirit)= living soul
At death it is body back to dust and spirit back to Giver (not conscious fluttering about)...soul on hold until the those other two are reunited...
and only at the resurrection day and only into a glorified body able to eat of the tree of life and able to walk the streets of gold...
I mean spirits dont really need streets do they?
Yup carried...and placed into Abraham’s bosom...carry a spirit? hard to provide a comforting embrace to a spirit...
Rich man buried and in fires...so eternal fires burn spirit tongues?
Folk tales are fun
way 2 go
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:yawn:
got it you don't believe Moses and the prophets, and neither did the rich man
and are not convinced by Jesus rising from the dead
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
You deny that a spirit can be carried, but you fail to consider the idea of God creating and interacting with angels, which are non-physical beings.
By the way, you still have not provided any reason why Lazarus could not be in the grave and in Abraham's bosom, only evaded and redirected away from my question.
Oh, and no, absence of evidence is not evidence.
I do believe Moses and the prophets who DID NOT teach about eternal flames burning spirit tongues...is why He said His friend was dead and that was true...DEAD...not on Abraham’s bosom or else He would have said that...
Ask Hosea he said Jacob wrestled with an angel but not sure I “fail to consider” Him creating and interacting with angels...
Pretty sure angels dont get burnt though...
So decide for yourself if a spirit finds comfort in a warm embrace...or can be burnt by flames...or have its spirit tongue cooled by a drop of water...as I said folk tales are fun
Because the OT teaching is upon death the spirit returns to the Creator...body to dust...
Already provided texts...
But one fun folk tale and for yours it overrides all that OT teaching...
Choose ye this day I guess...
I go with Him His > man’s traditions
way 2 go
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:yawn:
I understand , You are not convinced by Jesus or believing Moses and the prophets
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
obviously you dont...it was a folk tale/parable He taught the people in...is what He did...teach in parables...as Abraham didnt actually say that and Moses and the prophets don’t teach after death it’s Abraham’s bosom or eternal fire
Sure I am. He taught:
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
See? the dead are in tombs not in fire or Abraham’s bosom...hell or heaven but remain in the tomb...
John 11:11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.”
Is why it is:
Acts 7:60 “Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Yahweh, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.” See? Stephen fell into sleep NOT into Abraham’s bosom or into heaven fluttering about in spirit form...
Oh and Paul again
1 Corinthians 15:6
6 After that He appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time,a most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death.
Nothing there about falling unto Abraham’s bosom or into eternal flames...heaven or hell...bodily or spirit form
Yup...He used a folk tale and not to teach on the state of the dead...but forgiveness...
Yup...He used a folk tale like Santa coming down chimneys or Satan’s favorite “you shall not surely die”...apparently you like it too
way 2 go
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I understand you think Jesus lied
you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...
you don't believe Moses and the prophets, and neither did the rich man
and are not convinced by Jesus rising from the dead
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
dead bodies are put in the ground
spirits continue on
Luk 16:22 And it happened, the poor one died and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
absence of evidence is not evidence.
You would have Him lie for not saying what you claim to be true...
He said they were dead...so He lied as they actually were on Abraham’s bosom or in flames...
Instead He said the truth...they are dead...body to dust spirit returns to its Giver...
Ecc 12:7
Yup...the teaching He gave is clear:
“
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29, NKJV).
“The hour is coming in which ALL”...so all remain in the grave...they have not gone on to paradise/heaven
ALL who are (currently)in the grave not in another place as if one could be in two places at once...grave and Abraham’s bosom/on fire
“will...come forth”...meaning come out of the grave and NOT after having come back from Heaven or Hell...
Both good and bad...not returning to pick up their bodies...but coming forth from sleep...
So according to you, figures of speech are lies?
So every time I say I want to hit the road at such and such a time, I'm lying because I don't actually "hit" the road?
Clefty, is "sleep" used as a euphemism (a type of figure of speech) for death?
no...and neither do I expect you to hit the road just like I dont expect to end up on Abraham’s bosom...or in flames...it was a folk talke He used to teach not the state of the dead but about forgiveness...and other things
He said His friend Lazarus was sleep...He clarified he was dead...
He wept...why weep if he rests on Abraham’s bosom? Or is getting his just reward...
Well I'm glad we agree on that.
Could you provide the full reasoning for why it's merely a folk tale, and not an actual event?
That doesn't answer my question. Could you please answer my question?
way 2 go
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Hey JR
I know you did not address this to me but I just want to see if we are on the same page
sleep is a euphemism for physical death.
our spirits live on.
Joh 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Php 1:23 For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.
2Co 5:8 even we are fully assured, and think it good rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you said : So the story claims Abraham said that but Abraham ACTUALLY didnt...
you say Abraham & Lazarus were not in the place referred to as "Abraham side" you say a lie
you say "Abraham side" where Abraham & Lazarus were does not exist , you say that place is a lie
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
you say the rich man did not go to "Hades", you say a lie
you say the place "Hades" where the rich man went does not exist , you say that place is a lie
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
good good
Ironically because He did use names in the story...it was not His parable but a popular folktale...He used it not for it’s Marxist “rich to hell poor to heaven” narrative but to teach about forgiveness...certainly NOT as a discourse on the afterlife...or He would have not said people are asleep or dead but would instead have told them the false belief that they were in Abraham’s bosom...He did NOT...because the dead know nothing...bodies to dust spirit back to Giver...
As for the folk tale itself...it was popular
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress....-man-and-lazarus-a-fable-about-the-afterlife/
He did say His friend was sleeping His disciples thought it was good because it meant Lazarus was getting better...He then told the truth...he was dead
Matt 9:24 He was also mocked by the people for saying the little girl was not dead but asleep...
As we can see it is not the common belief she was on Abraham’s bosom...but dead
And no being dead is not a euphemism for being on Abraham’s bosom or in flames...as Judgement Day had not occurred yet to determine where dead people might go if they did go anywhere
Good grief... yes...
Is why He clarified Lazarus was not merely sleeping but DEAD...and not on Abraham’s bosom