Jesus is God

[7djengo7]

If Jesus had held on to His divinity, He would have been immortal and would not have been able to die on the cross.

What (if anything at all!) do you mean by "His divinity"? I ask, because nowhere, in Scripture, do we find the word "divinity". Nobody, of course, can, by consulting the Bible, be rightfully expected to find out, therein, what YOU imagine YOU mean by your extra-Biblical claims.

Did you mean "If Jesus had held on to His IMMORTALITY....."?

Only an abject fool would claim that someone could go from being immortal to no longer being immortal.

Not to mention, we see your rank, satanic hypocrisy in saying that Jesus "stripped Himself of His divinity", whereas the Bible says no such thing; all the while, you falsely accuse Christians of teaching extra-Biblical doctrines.

 

[7djengo7]

Yeah that is strange to say that.

Not really strange for genuineoriginal to say it, though.

 

[Theo102]

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matthew 26:59-61

 

[God's Truth]

The Bible teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the only God we are to worship out of all the gods.

That is I AM. Jesus is I AM.

The Bible teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is above all other gods.

Other gods are not divinity.

The Bible teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob judges the other gods.

The other gods are not divine.

The Bible teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the King above of all gods.

Psalm 95:3 3 For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

That is about God, and Jesus, who are one and the same.

God the Father is the King of kings:

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

If the Bible says that there are other gods under the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, why wouldn't I be able to say that Jesus is a god and is divine without requiring Jesus to be the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Because there is only one Divine God.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has put all things under Lord Jesus Christ with one exception, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob Himself.

Of course not above God the Father they have the same name.

The only God greater than our Lord Jesus Christ is His Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

John 14:28 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus said that as a man, a servant of God His Father.
God didn’t pretend to come as a man.
God really came as a man.

 

[God's Truth]

Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matthew 26:59-61

What is your point?

They thought Jesus meant he would destroy the temple building.

 

[God's Truth]

Not really strange for genuineoriginal to say it, though.

I haven't debated with him for a while.

 

[Theo102]

What is your point?

Apparently the writer of John believed the story from the false witnesses.

They thought Jesus meant he would destroy the temple building.

No, the other gospels don't say that Jesus said that, and Mark also has the account of the false witnesses:

And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
But neither so did their witness agree together.
Matthew 14:55-59

 

[God's Truth]

Apparently the writer of John believed the story from the false witnesses.

You don't make sense.

Jesus was speaking of his body as being the temple of God and how he will raise it from the dead after three days.

No, the other gospels don't say that Jesus said that, and Mark also has the account of the false witnesses:

And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
But neither so did their witness agree together.
Matthew 14:55-59

You are just going to have to believe the scriptures and not say anything as ignorant as claiming John believed false witnesses about Jesus.

I can hardly believe that you would think that John made such a mistake before you.

The false witnesses didn't understand Jesus, so they gave an account of what they thought he meant.

 

[Theo102]

You don't make sense.

You're assuming that the writer of John didn't make mistakes.

Jesus was speaking of his body as being the temple of God and how he will raise it from the dead after three days.

No, that's what the writer of John said.

You are just going to have to believe the scriptures and not say anything as ignorant as claiming John believed false witnesses about Jesus.

It's not ignorant, it's the best explanation for the facts.

The false witnesses didn't understand Jesus, so they gave an account of what they thought he meant.

No, John was the only one to speak of the temple being like a body, and there's nothing from the other gospels that the false witnesses could have misunderstood.

 

[Clete]

John 1:1 is mistranslated, the definite article is missing in the middle phrase, and the sense of the final phrase is reversed:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

In the begining was the logos, and the logos was with the theos, and theos was the logos,

logos = reason

Your text:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

First of all I reject the notion that you can translate New Testament Greek better than every translator of English bibles since the 1500s.

But, for the sake of argument, even if your translation is correct, there's nothing that has changed. The Theos is still the Logos and the Logos became flesh.

If A=B and B=C then A=C

If Theos (A) is the Logos (B) and the Logos (B) became flesh (C) then the Theos (A) became flesh (C).


Incidentally, on the topic of the Logos being Reason...

Is God Moral?

 

[Clete]

I see what you did there.
You took the verses that say that the Word (Logos- the Divine Will) became flesh and inferred that it meant that the Creator Himself became flesh.

But, I rely on all the Bible, which includes many verses that state that God sent His Son.

Galatians 4:4-5 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

According to your beliefs, you did not lie.

But, I am not the one that needs to reject the verses that say God sent His Son in order to believe that God Himself became flesh.


The payoff is that I am able to believe what the Bible clearly teaches and I don't have to bow down to any extra-Biblical doctrine that requires me to ignore many of the verses of the Bible that contradict that doctrine.

There are no extrabiblical doctrines, which you just got through conceding!

I made no inferrences! The bible directly and explicitely says that the Word (Logos) and the (Theos) are equivalent ("The Word was God") and the the Logos became flesh. That's what it says. In any language you want to read it in!

If A=B and B=C then A=C

If Theos (A) is the Logos (B) and the Logos (B) became flesh (C) then the Theos (A) became flesh (C).


And more than that, I do not deny that God the Father sent His Son! Do you know what the Trinity doctrine teaches?

 

[Clete]

The translators did the best they could, but Word is a simplistic translation of Logos.

Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”)plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.

I think a full translation of John 1:1 would be:
In the beginning was the Divine Reason for creation, and the Divine Reason for creation was with God, and God was the Divine Reason for creation.

Except that "for creation" isn't in the Greek text.

A proper translation into modern English would be...

"In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God." (John 1:1)
"And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us," (John1:14a)

The word "Reason" may even be better than "Logic" but in English, depending how the words are used, they can be near perfect synonyms, so either way is fine.

See my essay in the following thread...

Is God Moral?

 

[Right Divider]

If Jesus had held on to His divinity, He would have been immortal and would not have been able to die on the cross.

Once again, you do not understand the two natures of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Fully God and fully man.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus isn't YHWH, unless you want to argue that YHWH is a servant.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Once again, someone that does not understand the TWO natures of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Fully God and fully man. The man Jesus was the servant.

 

[Right Divider]

Did Jesus raise Himself from the dead, or did God raise His Son from the dead?

Acts 3:26 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Jesus said that He would raise Himself. Was He a liar?

Joh 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.​

 

[God's Truth]

You're assuming that the writer of John didn't make mistakes.


No, that's what the writer of John said.


It's not ignorant, it's the best explanation for the facts.


No, John was the only one to speak of the temple being like a body, and there's nothing from the other gospels that the false witnesses could have misunderstood.

You don't understand the simplest of things. Do you even check on what others say and what you claim? It is a serious thing to be a teacher of the scriptures.


John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Did you read how John says Jesus said but he was speaking of the temple of his BODY?

 

[God's Truth]

Right Divider

Let's not forget where you left off, okay?

How about it RD, can we discuss how Jesus is God the Father in the Old Testament?

I will be gone most of the day today, but hope to talk to you about it later.

 

[Right Divider]

How about it RD, can we discuss how Jesus is God the Father in the Old Testament?

I will be gone most of the day today, but hope to talk to you about it later.

Jesus is eternally God's Son... He did not "become" the Son when He came to earth.

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

Jesus was with His Father before all of creation.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is eternally God's Son... He did not "become" the Son when He came to earth.

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

Jesus was with His Father before all of creation.

Jesus was with God from the beginning and was God.

Now, is that Jesus speaking as God the Father in the Old Testament?

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus was with God from the beginning and was God.

I agree.

Now, is that Jesus speaking as God the Father in the Old Testament?

Scripture please?