4 B.C., to be precise. Alas, we can not be that precise,
Uh, yes, we can...
Preface The following is part of a short series of devotional items related to the birth of Christ. For some, such material is hardly devotional because it primarily focuses on history. But we must keep in mind that the Jesus we worship was truly born in time-space history. And that babe in the...
SO, either Jesus was lying about God sharing glory with Him, or Jesus is God. What a black and white fellow you are.
That's how clear the Bible is. I'm simply showing you what the Bible says.
Sharing glory is not being God.
What part of "I will not share My glory with another" and "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was"
do you not understand?
Was God lying in Isaiah 42:8 when He said that?
In fact, the entire first 9 verses of Isaiah 42 are about Jesus!
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth.He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them.” - Isaiah 42:1-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah42:1-9&version=NKJV
"in whom My soul delights" - Luke 3:22
"I have put My Spirit upon Him" - Luke 3:22
"He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street" - Jesus said nothing as they abused Him before leading Him to be crucified
"Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out..." - God Himself is speaking:
"I am the Lord, that is My name;" - God is identifying Himself again, to add emphasis
"And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images" - God is stating unequivocally that He alone deserves His glory.
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
- John 17:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:1-5&version=NKJV
Either Jesus was lying in John 17:5, in that He never shared in God's glory, or God was lying, in that He does give His glory to another, or Jesus is God, in that Jesus and the Father, both the one true God, share glory within the Godhead.
Jesus is the earthly representative of God,
Yes, He is.
Yes, He does.
He speaks what He was Willed to speak on behalf of God.
For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”
- John 12:49-50 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:49-50&version=NKJV
He speaks according to what His Father tells Him to speak.
The word "God" isn't used here for a reason.
God is transcendent and does not enter a lower state of being, the physical dimension.
Saying it doesn't make it so, and you have done nothing to establish this claim.
On the other hand, Scripture is clear:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. - John 1:1-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-18&version=NKJV
Jesus is the human, Primal Point of interaction between God and man.
New-age mumbo jumbo.
Here's what Scripture says:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying— a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-7&version=NKJV
This does not in any way make Jesus a literal aspect of the Essence of God. No Scripture suggest this, unless it is misunderstood.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Preincarnate Jesus is called a Christophany, a type of theophany. The power of the spirit of Christ was not that of a mere human.
Thanks for contradicting yourself.
Humans don't exist before they are conceived in their mothers' wombs. Jesus claimed to exist long before He was conceived, AT LEAST TWICE, and Scripture testifies to His claims.
Christ was BOTH the Son of God, and the Son of Man, the latter being His favorite title for Himself.
He no doubt could have appeared if He so wished.
Again, the problem is that you, as far as I am aware, claim that Jesus was human, and nothing more than that, which means that He didn't exist prior to His conception in Mary's virgin womb (which is also evidence that He is God, by the way)
I believe this is an aspect of the truth regarding the risen Christ.
No human has the power to appear spiritually before they exist.
None of this requires Jesus to be God.
Saying it doesn't make it so, and you're wrong.
ALL of it requires Jesus to be God.
How am I not arguing again what you are saying?
Because your claims are self-contradictory. Mine are not.
Jesus did not mention a specific Trinity as believed by you,
He expressed subservience,
Presenting what I believe, as an argument against what I believe, won't work for you.
nor did God outline your version of the Trinity,
Yes, He did.
nor did any of the Disciples suggest your version of the Trinity
and it does not occur in the Bible.
Just because the word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't taught by it.
It is a human construct, we know when it occurred and it is very close to heresy.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
A Trinity does exist is the essential connection of Servant, Master and the Will of said Master, without any suggestion that transcendent God is compromised by parts.
More new-age nonsense, followed by a straw man.
Our claim is not that God is made of parts, let alone compromised by such. Unless you meant "comprised," in which case it's still a straw man, because that's not our position.
What is so implausible about the one God being three Persons? Please, you're a clever guy.
I'm a fallible human, prone to making mistakes that I can't recognize, subject to the Dunning-Kruger effect just like everyone else.
You write beautifully, so you have a good mind.
Just read that line again and give it some thought.
As I said above, I'm a fallible human. I'm asking you to show me what you can apparently see that I apparently cannot.
What is implausible about the one God being three Persons?
How can the illogical be made logical? It can not!
Begging the question.
You need to establish that "the one God being three Persons" is illogical. You have not done so, and it's why I'm asking you to explain for me why it is implausible for the one God to be Three Persons.
Nor do we claim that the illogical is logical. Quite the opposite in fact, that God is a rational Being, and that includes His existence.
You are following a misunderstanding
Then explain the misunderstanding in a way that comports with what the entire Bible says.
that has been perpetuated since the First Council of Nicaea.
The concept of God being a plurality goes back to Moses, the first of the authors of the Bible.
They were trying to appease Constantine and in doing so they painted themselves into a corner.
You keep bringing up human councils, and I'm pointing to something those councils were discussing that precedes those councils.
Not to mention that those councils were made up of fallible humans who were not inspired by God.
Scripture was scripture the moment it was written, not when it was compiled into a library of books by a group of men.
But not irrational.
You can't make a God of three parts, one God, that is utterly nonsensical.
Another straw man.
We agree that God is not made of parts, blueboy. Can you please stop accusing us of believing it?
None of this diminishes God,
Saying that God is not what He is does diminish God.
That's why it's important to know the truth.
or the sublime Station of Jesus,
As I've said before, you focus too much on the "station" (whatever that means) of Jesus, rather than WHO Jesus said He was.
or the dynamic Will of God that enabled Jesus to conquer the hearts and souls of humanity.
The focus of Jesus' ministry was on Himself.
|What does the Bible say about the deity of Christ? For centuries, as affirmed at the Council of Nicea, Christians have used a wonderful list of verses to demonstrate from God's Word the deity of Jesus Christ. Here is another very different approach to show the same truth. (This is similar to the "Big Picture" approach used in the overview of the Bible called The Plot.)|
Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:
- "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
- Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
- "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
- "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
- Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
- "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
- You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
- Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
- "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
- Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
- "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
- So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
- "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
- Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
- "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
- "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
- "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
- Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
- Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
- "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
- Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
- "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
- Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
- "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
- Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
- "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
- "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
- "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
- I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
- I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
- Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
- "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
- "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
- "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
- The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
- The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
- Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
- Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
- "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
- "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
- "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
- "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
- Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
- Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
- Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
- "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
- Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
- Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
- "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
- Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
- Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
- Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
- "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
- The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
- We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
- "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
- Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
- "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
- "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
- Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
- "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
- "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
- Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 
- Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
- "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
- "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
- "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
- "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
- "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
- "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
- "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
- Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
- "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
- "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
- I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
- "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
- Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
- "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
- "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
- "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
- "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
- Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
- "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
- The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
- "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
- "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
- "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
- "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
- "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
- "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
- "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
- "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
- "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21
Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.