Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

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glorydaz

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Jesus addresses God the Father as “Father” and when he thus spoke he was not speaking to the Holy Spirit.

Actually, when He spoke, He spoke the words of God. Just think on the greatness of our Lord God.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

We see the same when the Holy Spirit is come. They are ONE GOD.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​


The One God is pre-eminently called God the Father because He is the father of Jesus, and only through Jesus all his brethren become sons of God and address God the Father as “our Father” as instructed by Jesus. Do you pray to God the Holy Spirit? Your Trinity concepts confuse the simple truth that there is One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

On the contrary, it's only through understanding our ONE GOD is triune in nature that all of Scripture can be fully understood. When I pray, I pray to our Great God and Saviour...knowing all three are included in the Godhead.

Who but the Spirit interprets our groanings? The Comforter has come. There is no formula for us to follow in prayer. They are ONE.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.​
 

JudgeRightly

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Please everyone check it out! Click on the link and examine the upper left-hand part of the page. I'm tired of being insulted and lied about over and over.
Instead of asking people to go to your site, provide excerpts.

This way, discussion remains on this site, and people don't have to leave TOL in order to know your position.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again glorydaz,
Actually, when He spoke, He spoke the words of God. Just think on the greatness of our Lord God.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
If he was God he would speak his own words and would not need to learn from the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

JudgeRightly

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Greetings again glorydaz, If he was God he would speak his own words and would not need to learn from the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor
Why?

Why would He have to speak His own words for Him to be God?
 

Dartman

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Why?

Why would He have to speak His own words for Him to be God?

Because the FACT that he stated clearly,
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that Hhis commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

AND, that Jesus states plainly, his Father is "the ONLY true God"..

John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

Proves conclusively that Jesus is NOT God, Jesus OBEYED and WORSHIPPED his God~!
 

JudgeRightly

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Because the FACT that he stated clearly,
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that Hhis commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Saying such does not preclude Him from being God, Dartman.

AND, that Jesus states plainly, his Father is "the ONLY true God"..

John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

But He did NOT say that ONLY the Father is the only true God.

He affirmed that there is only one God.

But He did not limit God to being "only" the Father.

Proves conclusively that Jesus is NOT God,

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Jesus OBEYED and WORSHIPPED his God!

Agreed.

But He never excluded Himself from being that same God.
 

Dartman

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Saying such does not preclude Him from being God, Dartman.
Of course it does!

Unless you are defining "God" differently than trinitarian/oneness teachers do.

The clear statements that Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, but his FATHER IS .... proves Jesus is NOT eternal, Jesus is NOT "all knowing", Jesus is NOT "co-equal".
It proves what the Scriptures clearly teach ..... Jesus is Jehovah/YHVH God's FAITHFUL SERVANT.

JR said:
But He did NOT say that ONLY the Father is the only true God.
That's precisely what the text means.
Your double use of "ONLY" is both redundant, and transparent.
 

Apple7

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Greetings again Apple7, Of four series on Learning Hebrew I persevered a few years ago with Beginners, Intermediate but did not progress to the Advanced and Translation series. My impression is that you are not always accurate when you use “the original languages”. After a recent discussion I looked up two recent purchases by a Jewish scholar and a CofE scholar, but both seemed to disagree with what you stated. Both of these were University Hebrew lecturers and well recognised in their particular field. Maybe you only got 51% in your exam.

Kind regards
Trevor
Show us.
 

Apple7

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Greetings again glorydaz, If he was God he would speak his own words and would not need to learn from the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor


'Learn'...what, exactly?

The Second Person of The Trinity did the speaking for the First Person of The Trinity in the OT, as well, proving, once again, that God is more than One Person.

You would do well to study the OT, Trev...
 

Apple7

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Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.


A few verses after Isa 61.1 - 2, the Servant of Yahweh calls Himself Yahweh…. ‘for I, Yahweh, love justice…’ Isa 61.8.


:cigar:
 

7djengo7

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God's words were in the begining [sic], were with God, and ARE God.

Words ARE God?

According to you, three persons can't be God, but three (or more) words ARE God?!?

You say that, when Jesus says to God the Father, "thee the only true God", what Jesus really means is that ONLY God the Father is the only true God. Now, you are contradicting yourself by saying that God the Father AND God's words are the only true God.
 

Tigger 2

Active member
Apple7 wrote:
A few verses after Isa 61.1 - 2, the Servant of Yahweh calls Himself Yahweh…. ‘for I, Yahweh, love justice…’ Isa 61.8.

It is fairly obvious that even many Trinitarian scholars believe correctly that Is. 61:8, 9 is a statement where YHWH begins talking and stops at the end of :9.

The following Bible translations show this to be true by their use of quotation marks - CJB (61:8); ISV (new speaker at :8, 9) KJ21; NIV; NCV; NKJV; WEB.
 

TrevorL

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Greetings again Apple7,
If he was God he would speak his own words and would not need to learn from the Father.
'Learn'...what, exactly?
This is a question that I have asked before, and possibly asked you as well, but how do you understand Jesus as a child? Was he full Deity? Did he have the mind of a child and the full mind of God at the same time? Did he have two minds, and switch from one to the other?

If he had the full mind of Deity, how do you understand the following that speaks of his growth in wisdom?
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Does God the Father increase in wisdom? And yet here according to your view, God the Son increased in wisdom.
You would do well to study the OT, Trev...
Looking at this concept of wisdom in the OT and how Jesus needed to learn and how he learnt. Firstly in general terms, though David and Solomon could be speaking primarily to Jesus, or even it is God the Father speaking to His Son in prospect, corresponding to Jesus in his youth:
Proverbs 2:1–9 (KJV): 1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
I was going to underline various parts of the above, but each part contributes to the whole, teaching how wisdom and understanding is achieved. Now you asked: “'Learn'...what, exactly?”, so I ask did Jesus need to learn wisdom and is the above a good indication of how he achieved this? Or was he full Deity and full of mature wisdom when he was 4 or 5 years old?

The following also speak directly of Jesus and adds another factor, that the Holy Spirit dwelt upon Jesus from his birth, helping in his development:
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

The following is from the 3rd Servant Song and it speaks of the way Jesus learnt from God the Father:
Isaiah 50:4–7 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again 7djengo7,
Is the Holy Spirit eternal? Yes or No?
Did the Holy Spirit have a beginning? Yes or No?
I do not always answer directly to “Yes or No?”. God’s spirit and the Holy Spirit are much one and the same. It is God’s Power and often paralleled with God’s “breath”. It is part of God the Father, not a separate entity. God the Father has always existed and so His Spirit has always existed. The word “Holy Spirit” occurs in some circumstances where God’s Spirit is used for a specific purpose. Here is another parallelism that helps to explain this:
Psalm 139:7 (KJV): Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

7djengo7

New member
Apple 7's quote is entirely within the bracketed opinion of the translator!

False. Here's Apple7's quote:

Those who maintain that this word must necessarily be taken in a physical sense, as implying generation, and that in this passage the eternal generation of Christ is taught, do not appear to have considered (besides the passages in Deut. and Jer.) the words of the apostle, 1 Cor 4:15 εν γαρ χριστω ιησου δια του ευαγγελιου εγω υμας εγεννησα (Whatever difficulty might have been found in Psalm 2:7, it is cleared away by the New Test; where we learn, that it speaks of the resurrection of Christ, when He, the eternal son of God, became the first begotten of the dead

Apple7's quote does not even include the translator's closing bracket, itself, nor all that precedes the translator's closing bracket, as you should easily be able to see from Apple7's ellipsis.

See how one can reply to his opponent without being insulting (personal attack).

How is lying about Apple7's quote, as you have just done, not a personal attack against Apple7?
 

7djengo7

New member
Greetings again 7djengo7, I do not always answer directly to “Yes or No?”.
OF COURSE you must stonewall against the questions I asked you:

Is the Holy Spirit eternal? Yes or No?
Did the Holy Spirit have a beginning? Yes or No?


That's exactly WHY I asked you those questions: because I understand that for you to answer YES would be for you to shoot yourself in the foot, and that for you to answer NO would be for you to shoot yourself in the foot. I just wanted you to demonstrate, for everybody else, the fact that you know you must--out of calculation, hoping to not further embarrass your anti-Christ heresy--stonewall against those questions. And, by demonstrating that fact, you shoot yourself in the foot, further embarrassing your anti-Christ heresy. Thank you.
 

Apple7

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Greetings again Apple7, This is a question that I have asked before, and possibly asked you as well, but how do you understand Jesus as a child? Was he full Deity? Did he have the mind of a child and the full mind of God at the same time? Did he have two minds, and switch from one to the other?

If he had the full mind of Deity, how do you understand the following that speaks of his growth in wisdom?
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Does God the Father increase in wisdom? And yet here according to your view, God the Son increased in wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

Did you ever think to consult the Greek, Trev?

No...of course not....why should you....you NEVER do!

Had you bothered to even look to the Greek of your hand-picked example, you would have discovered that the arthrous 'THE Wisdom' is called-out.

'THE Wisdom' is an epithet referring to The Third Person of The Trinity.

What can you do now, Trev?


:cigar:
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
OF COURSE you must stonewall against the questions I asked you:
Is the Holy Spirit eternal? Yes or No?
Did the Holy Spirit have a beginning? Yes or No?
I answered by way of explanation because your question assumed a separate identity for the Holy Spirit and you thus framed your question with a Trinitarian viewpoint. To answer yes or no adopts this framework which I reject.
That's exactly WHY I asked you those questions: because I understand that for you to answer YES would be for you to shoot yourself in the foot, and that for you to answer NO would be for you to shoot yourself in the foot. I just wanted you to demonstrate, for everybody else, the fact that you know you must--out of calculation, hoping to not further embarrass your anti-Christ heresy--stonewall against those questions. And, by demonstrating that fact, you shoot yourself in the foot, further embarrassing your anti-Christ heresy. Thank you.
Your reaction here demonstrates your method.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Apple7

New member
The following also speak directly of Jesus and adds another factor, that the Holy Spirit dwelt upon Jesus from his birth, helping in his development:
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Kind regards
Trevor


You just confirmed that WISDOM = THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is The Third Person of The Trinity - just as I told you!!!

So....why are you still having an issue with your Luke example?

Further...please show us the Hebrew word 'learned' in this passage.

Good luck, Trev....



:cigar:
 
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