James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Right.

The very same person.

Already understood, so I CAN say it, because it is true.

It wasn't another person that died on the cross. It was the same person.

Right, the same person did all that. Not two persons.

The same person.

Knock it off, Nang. You know full well that I am not taking 'short cuts'. In this entire thread, I have said and know that it was the Son that became incarnate.

It was not one person that was eternal and another person that died.
The same person that was eternal also died.
If you say otherwise, you are a heretic.

Never said anything different, other than the Incarnation necessitated God the Son take upon Himself humanity . . . which was provided to Him by the Father with the body and soul of Jesus; the Lamb of God.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
That has nothing to do with it, so I won't head down that bunny trail. We were talking about the "mediator".....the man, Jesus Christ, and "God is one". Meaning, our Lord had to be God and man in order to be the perfect mediator between God and man.

No argument.


Our Lord being a man was not enough to make Him our Saviour. No man was found worthy, and man's righteousness would only cover his own sins. The fact that God provided HIMSELF a Lamb is why He can say He is the ONLY Saviour.

Agreed.


This is why Sozo was saying God died for our sins.

Actually, S0ZO says that Christ's death did not save us . . . he claims we only find life in Christ's resurrection.

So why all the fuss because I say Jesus Christ possessed two natures; human and divine, as the manifestation of the Person of God the Son?

("Natures" [or souls] being distinct from "Person.")

Have you lost track of what is being discussed?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Off the top of my head....

1 Cor. 2:11 Prov. 20:27 Job 32:8

The only Spirit by which there is any communication between God and man, is the Holy Spirit.

The human spirit/soul is dead in trespasses and sins . . .

Unless a man is born again from above by the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit, no man can see or comprehend the kingdom (salvation) of God. John 3:3; I Corinthians 2:10-14
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Heh . . . really?

The human spirit communicates with God? How?

Cite Scripture, please . . .

Hi Nang,

Please take a look at 1Cor. 2:11+.

11"For what man knoweth (oida, intuitive knowledge) the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth (oida) no man, but the Spirit of God."

12"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know (oida) the things that are freely given to us of God."

13"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Paired with the communion faculty of the human spirit, this intuition of oida is the spiritual knowledge conveyed to the mind faculty of the soul. It represents access, not acquistion; and it's the means by which epignosis knowledge is a synonym for faith, eclipsing the generality of gnosis.

The spirit and soul aren't separatable, but are distributable and distinct. We are Bipartite as hypostasis/ousia and prosopon. And unless and until the human spirit is resurrected, man functions in a Bipartite manner as spirit/soul and body.

But just as ruach and nephesh are not the same, neither are pneuma and psuche the same. Only God's Logos can pierce and distribute them, though. That's why they are so often presumed to be interchangably indistinct.
 

glorydaz

New member
Actually, S0ZO says that Christ's death did not save us . . . he claims we only find life in Christ's resurrection.

Well, he was right about that. We are reconciled by His death and saved by His life. Romans 5:10 That doesn't change the fact that there is no other Saviour but God. We aren't saved until we accept that reconciliation His death provided (Be ye reconciled). That is the "much more" referred to, and it's only when we are crucified with Christ and RAISED into newness of life that we are saved.

So why all the fuss because I say Jesus Christ possessed two natures; human and divine, as the manifestation of the Person of God the Son?

("Natures" [or souls] being distinct from "Person.")

Have you lost track of what is being discussed?

I haven't lost track of anything....nice try at turning it back on me, though. ;)

Natures (or souls), as you say, is the problem....still. You can't just toss out terms that do not mean the same thing as if they do. That's why there ends up being so much confusion when someone tries to have a discussion with someone who uses terms differently.

The soul comprises the individuality of each person....the mind, will, and emotions. It makes us who we are. The spirit is the innermost part of man, that part that holds communion with God. It isn't "dead" before we're quickened, it's just not in communication with God....cut off, if you will. Where I disagree with Sozo is that Jesus did have His own human will and mind, but chose to be of one mind with the Father. "Not my will but thine be done." That doesn't make Him "double minded", it makes Him truly God and truly man.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Actually, S0ZO says that Christ's death did not save us . . . he claims we only find life in Christ's resurrection.
Probably because he read scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
 

glorydaz

New member
The only Spirit by which there is any communication between God and man, is the Holy Spirit.

Last time I checked, it takes TWO to communicate. The Holy Spirit is one, and the spirit of man is the other.

The human spirit/soul is dead in trespasses and sins . . .

Nope....we're sitting in prison on death row unless we walk out that prison door Jesus opened by dying on the cross. You Calvinists think man is so dead he can't even hear the Gospel....which only proves you don't know the meaning of the word death....just as Sozo claimed. The fact is, sin separates us from God, which is why the word says we are dead in trespasses and sins.

Unless a man is born again from above by the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit, no man can see or comprehend the kingdom (salvation) of God. John 3:3; I Corinthians 2:10-14

See, you quote from John 3 which says, Whosoever believeth will never perish..." and then claim we are dead already in trespasses and sins. You need to get your story straight instead of trying to have it both ways. Then you go right ahead and quote the verse I gave you about the spirit of man.....it's that very spirit of man that responds to the word of God when the Gospel is preached. The Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.....there is POWER in the Word that the spirit of man responds to. Job 32:8 Proverbs 20:27

The Gospel is like the clanking of the lock on the prison door. It gets our attention....we hear....we believe....we walk out the DOOR.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
The spirit and soul aren't separatable, but are distributable and distinct.

The only time I see distinction between spirit/soul is when the regenerated soul is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God,
Who alone distributes epignosis knowledge to that human spirit/soul.


We are Bipartite as hypostasis/ousia and prosopon. And unless and until the human spirit is resurrected, man functions in a Bipartite manner as spirit/soul and body.

Agreed.

But just as ruach and nephesh are not the same, neither are pneuma and psuche the same. Only God's Logos can pierce and distribute them, though. That's why they are so often presumed to be interchangably indistinct.

The only logical reason I can fathom, to distinguish soul from spirit, is to give God the Holy Spirit ALL the glory for illuminating the human spirit/soul with His truth.

Even in regeneration, IMO, by nature, the believer remains totally depraved in body and spirit/soul and no elevation of the human spirit is warranted apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. There is nothing in man to be trusted, even when confessing faith in God.

God alone is a complete, righteous, triune Being; functioning in perfection. Fallen man fails to fully reflect God while remaining in his corrupted prosopon and hypostasis/ousia, except when exercising the beliefs (epignosis) gifted to him by God as an earnest, until that sinner is finally and actually bodily resurrected to eternal glory.

Sola Deo Gloria!
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
The only time I see distinction between spirit/soul is when the regenerated soul is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God,
Who alone distributes epignosis knowledge to that human spirit/soul.

Right. It's because of spiritual death (thanatos), into which we are conceived and inevitably results in hamartia (singular articular, the inner sin condition).

It's not that the spirit and soul aren't distinct, it's that the spirit is "buried" in the soul and needs to be resurrected unto zoe life from within. That can only happen via the Logos piercing and dividing asunder. And it's not a separation, it's a (re-)distribution.

The Rhema is the sword of the Spirit. The wielding of the sword is the Logos. So only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can do this diikneomai and merismos, having been distributed at Pentecost.

Before conversion, the human spirit is present and only marginally internally functional; but with no communion with God by His Spirit. That's the (spiritual) thanatos (death). A cessation of communion with environment of origin.


:sheep: :)


The only logical reason I can fathom, to distinguish soul from spirit, is to give God the Holy Spirit ALL the glory for illuminating the human spirit/soul with His truth.

Of course. :salute:

Even in regeneration, IMO, by nature, the believer remains totally depraved in body and spirit/soul and no elevation of the human spirit is warranted apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. There is nothing in man to be trusted, even when confessing faith in God.

This is where an intricate understanding of the ontological Gospel is vital. Our hypostasis is translated into the hypostasis of God when by the hypostasis of faith (which came by hearing the rhema hypsotasis), we reckon our prosopon (outer man) crucified with Christ, and put on the prosopon of Christ.

But this would take some lengthy exegesis to outline in detail.

God alone is a complete, righteous, triune Being; functioning in perfection. Fallen man fails to fully reflect God while remaining in his corrupted prosopon and hypostasis/ousia, except when exercising the beliefs (epignosis) gifted to him by God as an earnest, until that sinner is finally and actually bodily resurrected to eternal glory.

Sola Deo Gloria!

This is where the translation of the human hypostasis must be understood.

I was just pointing up the distinction that though they can only be pierced and divided asunder by God's Logos, the spirit and soul are not the same. And there needs to be a reconciliation of the Bipartite and Tripartite views to truly recognize the structural funcationaliy and mechanism to both hamartia and our redemption.

Since the soul was derived by spirit-body joining, it has no environment of origin to cease communion with. The thanatos of the human spirit (which is from conception) is administered to the soul, conjoining it to that thanatos and relegating it's life to that of the physical body still being sustained by the spirit as breath of life.

With all the different views and perceptions flying around, and with all the bare English vocab for everything; it's hard for others to get a bead on what each other are actually saying.

That's why I've kinda stood back. Thanks for the convo. :)
 

Lighthouse

Star-Spangled Kid
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
If I just had Nang and PPS to go by I would think Calvinism was the theology of the asylum; or at least led one to end up there.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
If I just had Nang and PPS to go by I would think Calvinism was the theology of the asylum; or at least led one to end up there.

One problem.... I'm not a Calvinist.

Fail.

And you couldn't have the remotest hint of a conversation on the depths of these topics or with these vital Greek terms, etc.

Nobody needs condescension from the sandbox at the daycare. Go find some water colors or crayons or something. It's difficult enough dealing with well-meaning and decent-hearted members who are just trapped in conceptual tangents to truths because of false language patterns for thought.

You're just a nuisance to deter any serious thought or conversation from occurring. But that likely won't stop you from posting meaninglessness.

Ssshhhhh. The adults are talking.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Try getting affirmation of this from your buddy, AMR.
Don't know the implication intended from the "buddy" part, but I do consider you and she a sister. Just sayin'. ;)

As for tri-partite views of man, I have steadfastly argued this is error and point to the following for careful reading:

View attachment 18942

As the topic is a non-essential matter of the faith so I do not make it exclusively a cause for disfellowship.

AMR
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Don't know the implication intended from the "buddy" part, but I do consider you and she a sister. Just sayin'. ;)



I do not consider glorydaz my sister.

In fact, I am deeply sorry to see you accept her, as yours . . .

In my estimation, you show serious lack of spiritual discernment, considering her confession of ungodly beliefs and unrepentant personal attacks against the true saints of God.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It is all about the essentials first, Nang. What have I missed? :idunno:

AMR
 
Top