James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

Ask Mr. Religion

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As usual, Ghost has his own interpretations.

Decide for yourself:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45335

A long thread well worth reviewing.

The short answer Ghost cannot come to grips with as he has the two natures of Christ all confused with Gnostic and Apollinarian notions as shown in the debate above:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-death-of-god-and-the-death-of-christ

As he did not prevail on both accounts, SOZ0 is just trying to desperately revisit the same topic in hopes of rehabilitating himself. Sigh.

AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You don't even understand what you THINK I said. You are just that plain stupid. It's worse than talking to meshak, trying to explain anything to a dolt like you.

That seems to be a common problem, doesn't it? Nang, for instance, always thinks she knows what I've said, yet she never does. :chuckle:


The Jesus of the Bible does not have two natures, two minds, or two wills. Nowhere does the Bible teach that He does.

What do you make of these verses? These all seem to be saying Jesus chose to do the will of the Father rather than His own will.

Matt. 26:39 John 5:21 John 5:30 John 6:38
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Was Jesus everywhere in the flesh?
Unless you have Lutheran leanings as to the Supper, the obvious answer is indisputably "No".

When God appears as a cloud to the Israelites was He not in everywhere else?

When speaking of the Incarnation one needs to be careful to not confuse the divinity with the humanity. In your view God the Son, the divine Logos, is somehow incapable of taking on a human nature while also remaining in Heaven and everywhere else. Do you really think the Divine Logos was not in Heaven when Jesus walked the earth?

AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The soul is what distinguishes one person from the next.

True.


If Jesus has a human soul, then that person never existed until conception. Jesus is eternal God. You cannot have two persons, with two natures, two minds, two wills, etc.

But, when the Word (God) became flesh, He was born of woman....the offspring of David and thus was a unique person. While the Word had no beginning, Jesus of Nazareth did. That person (that God/man) had never existed until He was conceived in Mary.

Having said that, 1 John 1:1-3 seems to be addressing what you're saying, although it doesn't really do away with His humanity and the verses I gave speaking of His having His own will.
 

S0ZO

New member
As usual, Ghost has his own interpretations.

Decide for yourself:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45335

A long thread well worth reviewing.

The short answer Ghost cannot come to grips with as he has the two natures of Christ all confused with Gnostic and Apollinarian notions as shown in the debate above:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-death-of-god-and-the-death-of-christ

As he did not prevail on both accounts, SOZ0 is just trying to desperately revisit the same topic in hopes of rehabilitating himself. Sigh.

AMR
Who died on the cross? Answer, pervert.

The whole truth of our conversation (not the one you keep posting, when you lied about our one on one), provides your answer.

Go ahead, you pile of crap, tell us again. Who died on the cross? Expose your false god. I dare you.
 

S0ZO

New member
AMR will run from this, just like he did when we were supposed to have a one on one. He is a liar. It's what he does, and has always done on this site. He has the integrity of a suicide bomber.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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You may be fooling some idiots on this site (as if that really matters), but God knows that you are a liar, and that is all that really matters.
Ignoring the "everyone is an idiot that disagrees with SOZ0" implication, if "that is all that really matters" why are you straining mightily to redeem yourself herein? It is clear that you desperately seek to redeem yourself from your past performance otherwise you would not be trying so hard.

AMR
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Who died on the cross?

Asked and answered in painful detail to your detriment:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45335

I know it smarts when you think back and review your attempts to sustain your views in our past discussion and debate. But all the "knock this stick off my shoulder" or "step across this line" will not get me to take your desperate baitings. Go "dare" someone else who plays the cockalorum's games.

Come to think of it, it is probably best that you take your own advice following another one of your unsuccessful discussions with me:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1564691#post1564691

:AMR:

AMR
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Heresy, and one of the main reasons why Calvinism is a cult.
Imbecil,

This is not a doctrine of Calvinism, its a doctrine of Christianity since the 4th century.

Seriously, Apollinarianism was dealt with in the 4th century, and it teaches exactly what you are teaching here. Your theological stance here was thrown into the trash heap long before John Calvin was even a twinkle in a young Dutchman's eye.


Sozo said:
The soul is what distinguishes one person from the next.
The soul is essential to making a human a person, that's for sure.

:doh:

Sozo said:
If Jesus has a human soul, then that person never existed until conception.
Welcome to doctrine 101. The second person of the Trinity didn't possess a human nature prior to the incarnation where He took on a human nature.

BTW, Dr. Clueless, isn't that what you Open Theists are all on about in this thread in the first place?

:doh:

The fact the God the Son took on a Human Nature?

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Except that you don't believe that the Son of God took on a Human Nature, you appear to believe (at least tonight) that the Son of God didn't take on a human nature, He only took on a human body. Which, again, is heresy... Condemned at the First Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D...

Sozo said:
Jesus is eternal God.
Word salad, Jesus is the Name of the God-Man.

God the Son is eternal God. God the Son was incarnate circa 1 A.D. (give or take a few years) and took on a human nature. He was born of the virgin Mary and was Named Jesus by His parents who heeded God's command sent through the angel (Matthew 1:21).

Jesus is the God-Man.


Sozo said:
You cannot have two persons
No Calvinist claims you do, pick up a book why don't you, you might actually learn what Calvinists believe.

Better yet, study your bible, you have no idea who the real Jesus is. The real Jesus is still a Man and still has a human nature.

Sozo said:
with two natures,
If you don't have two natures, you don't have a God-Man you just have a god with a physical body, like your spiritual brothers the mormons believe.

That's why monophysitism is heretical.


Sozo said:
Read the Bible for once in your life.
You mean like 1 tim 2:5?

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1Ti 2:5 ESV)

I don't know what kind of a demigod you worship but Christians worship a Savior who is fully God and fully Man.
 

Tambora

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When God appears as a cloud to the Israelites was He not in everywhere else?
The cloud was not everywhere else.

Exodus 13:21 KJV
(21) And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:​


It says the LORD went before them
It does not say the LORD went everywhere.

Just as when scripture says the Holy Spirit was manifested as a dove.
Luke 3:22 KJV
(22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The dove did not descend everywhere.

When speaking of the Incarnation one needs to be careful to not confuse the divinity with the humanity.
I do not separate God from His manifestations (flesh, cloud, dove, etc.).

Either we have to admit that, or we have to say that it was not God that went before them, but just some cloud.
And we have to say that it was not God that descended, but just some dove.
And we have to say that it was not God that tabernacled among us, but just some man.


You want to make it an either/or set rule for what God is, or how God operates.
I don't.

I believe scripture when it says that Jesus is always with me.
And I believe scripture when it say that Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father.
I don't try to make it an either/or rule.
You shouldn't either.
The folks that do are always confronted with conflicting scriptures (in their mindset), so they start making up all kinds of stuff trying to claim that one scripture doesn't really mean what it says, simply because they have preconceived that it must be either/or and therefore try to force all scripture to match their either/or.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Asked and answered in painful detail to your detriment:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45335

I know it smarts when you think back and review your attempts to sustain your views in our past discussion and debate. But all the "knock this stick off my shoulder" or "step across this line" will not get me to take your desperate baitings. Go "dare" someone else who plays the cockalorum's games.

Come to think of it, it is probably best that you take your own advice following another one of your unsuccessful discussions with me:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1564691#post1564691

:AMR:

AMR

I don't think I've ever observed the use of the term "cockalorum" by anyone, and I love that word.

Well played, sir. :jump:
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Stick with the Christianity of the 1st century.
Do you think that the first century Christians thought Jesus was some kind of demigod, a Divine person in a zombified human body devoid of a human soul?

That's where Sozo will take you.

Sozo doesn't believe that Jesus was fully man. According to Sozo, Jesus had a human body, but not a human soul.

That's not a man. Jesus is a man.

In his irrational hatred of Calvinism Sozo has not only tossed out the baby with the bathwater, he threw the tub out as well.


So, yes, I agree that Sozo should stick with the Christianity of the first century.

How about you, do you think Jesus had a human soul?
 

S0ZO

New member
Ignoring the "everyone is an idiot that disagrees with SOZ0" implication, if "that is all that really matters" why are you straining mightily to redeem yourself herein?
I'm not. I'm defending the truth, from a liar (YOU).

You are in a cult, Mr. Religion. A cult that has a false god, that has two minds, two wills, two natures, as a result of going through a "change" that you both affirm and deny. You are as double-minded as your god.

You claim that your god did not die for the sins of the world, but instead abandoned his body, his second mind, his second will, and his second nature, just as the world was being reconciled.

You attempt to deceive others into believing that your "church" is the only true church (the sign of a cult), because a bunch of Joseph Smith types got together and decided that they alone were the interpreters of who God is, and what He has done.

Let's examine some of those beliefs:

1. Your cult denies that man has both a soul and a spirit.

There is no biblical support for this view, and in fact, biblical support that says there is 1 Thes 5:23; Heb 4:12. Nevertheless, you use this false dichotomous view to establish a foundation to build upon all of your heretical beliefs.

2. Your cult denies that Jesus died for all men.

This is at the core of your belief system, and it exposes you as outside the faith. The Apostle Paul says that the Gospel affirms that Jesus died for our sins. Rejecting that belief (and you do) is what identifies you as an unbeliever.

3. Your cult claims that you god is immutable, but then contradict that claim by having your god changed into something else.

You claim that God became a man who has a human soul, which makes him a newly created identity, that did not exist, and yet now continues to exist throughout eternity as someone other than who He originally was. No longer God, but eternally the god/man. Thus, not making him the same "yesterday, today, and forever", but different than He was yesterday and will be forever.

4. You claim that your god is outside of time

In order to make this leap into bizzaro world, you have to state that God is self-contradictory. You claim that God can both remember and not remember our sins simultaneously, since there can be no time when He is not in the "eternal now" and knows all things that will ever be, even those things He says He will not know.

5. Your god did not die on the cross

The result of your inability to comprehend the simplicity of what death is, has your cult trying to explain how God was not in Christ when Christ died, yet was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself by His death on the cross. Again, your god is both absent and present simultaneously, which is impossible.

6. Your god saves men before they are saved

Another contradiction in your cult. You claim that your god makes men alive (salvation) before they hear the Gospel (which makes the Gospel meaningless). The Apostle Paul refutes your demonic doctrine in one easy to understand verse:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

Men are saved AFTER they hear, just as Paul said they would, when he stated that faith comes by hearing.

This is just a small portion of evidence that exposes your "religion" which you claim to be the spokesman for on this site.
 
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S0ZO

New member
This is not a doctrine of Calvinism, its a doctrine of Christianity since the 4th century.
Um, no. It never was "Christianity", because nowhere is it taught by Jesus, Paul, Moses, or any other writer or communicator in the entirety of the Bible. It was made up by Satanically inspired men who could not understand who Jesus is, and what He has done. Just because a group of guys get together and claim something is true does not make it true. What the Bible says is what is true, and the Bible defines Jesus differently than these "creed" makers. I understand that your faith is in these men, but mine is in the Jesus of the Bible.

Seriously, Apollinarianism was dealt with in the 4th century, and it teaches exactly what you are teaching here.
Not true. I do not deny that Jesus was a man. I deny that Jesus was a man who had two natures, wills, minds, etc.

Welcome to doctrine 101. The second person of the Trinity didn't possess a human nature prior to the incarnation where He took on a human nature.
And yet you claim that God does not change. :chuckle:

You have a god who became someone that never existed, and then remains as this new person (who now has two minds, wills, natures, etc) throughout all of eternity, but never changed.

Welcome to contradictions 101. :loser:
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Are you so angry because certain words can have different meanings to different people?
No.

I get a little cranky for being called an idiot for upholding Christian orthodoxy and receiving profane messages along with a neg rep for speaking truth but I guess that's to be expected from Sozo, right? I do expect folks who dish it out to expect to take it and I think you'll find that I will go out of my way to be polite to those who can appreciate polite discussion.

Nevertheless, there is a time to treat a fool according to their folly and that time has come for Sozo.

glorydaz said:
Like "change" and "will" and "salvation" and even, dare I say it, "soul"?
I think if you go back and look at my interchange with Stripe, you'll find that I'm not as resistant to the word "change" as some of my Calvinist compadre's are when it comes to this discussion.

I'm fine agreeing that something changed in the incarnation, I just think we need to extend the conversation past the initial observation that something changed and then define what that something actually is.

I don't think that God's essence or nature changed.
I don't think that God's moral constitution changed.
I don't think that God's plan or purpose changed.

As such, think I can confidently uphold that God is immutable (in the way Calvinists argue for Divine immutability) and that God's presence among His creation changed in a very significant way.

Glorydaz said:
You realize, I hope, that man not only has a soul but is a soul.
Right, and when a human soul is divested of its human body that soul continues to be human because possessing a human nature is a necessary and sufficient characteristic of being human.

Which means that you cannot be human and not have a human nature. This is the logical and biblical necessity that Sozo refuses to accept.

Glorydaz said:
If not, perhaps you're in danger of "HERESY". :nono:
Which one?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Um, no. It never was "Christianity", because nowhere is it taught by Jesus, Paul, Moses, or any other writer or communicator in the entirety of the Bible.
What bible are you reading, mine says Jesus is a man.

It says so in 1 Tim 2:5 (which you ignored, nice move... Moron.. :rolleyes:), and also says that Jesus is a man in Romans 5:15. Furthermore Jesus was a human man, with a human soul.

Jesus said that His soul was troubled (John 12:27).

Jesus is not some demigod, some divine avatar who came to animate a zombified human corps. Jesus is One Person with Two Natures and to claim otherwise makes you a heretic.

And also an idiot who can't comprehend the most basic of truths such as the fact that all true humans possess a human nature.

Which means that, as a confirmed and obstinate heretic, you don't add anything to a genuine Christian discussion of doctrine anymore.

Sozo said:
It was made up by Satanically inspired men who could not understand who Jesus is, and what He has done. Just because a group of guys get together and claim something is true does not make it true.
You mean like the 5 or 6 guys who buy your perverted, cultic, heretical doctrine of Jesus the avatar. You perverted huckster. If you refuse to repent of ignorance then at least stop trying to drag people on this board into hell with you.

Sozo said:
What the Bible says is what is true,
The bible says Jesus is a man.
:sozo: Men have human souls!

Sozo said:
I understand that your faith is in these men,
Wrong again, and if you'd actually read the bible you'd know that Jesus was fully man.

Sozo said:
but mine is in the Jesus of the Bible.
False!

Your Jesus avatar, can't save you.

Sozo said:
Not true. I do not deny that Jesus was a man.
Moron, All men have human souls. In fact, when a persons dies (like you tried to hypocritically lecture me about) the human soul departs from the human body. So even a man who has died physically still exists as a human soul.

Having a human soul is necessary for being a man!

:doh:

Whatever creature you worship isn't human because humans have human souls.


Sozo said:
I deny that Jesus was a man who had two natures, wills, minds, etc.
Ok moron, so which nature didn't Jesus possess?

Hmmm?

A. Jesus didn't possess a human nature (meaning He wasn't human) -- Apollinarianism.
B. Jesus didn't possess a divine nature (meaning He wasn't Divine) -- Arianism.

Or

C. I Sozo, am a nasty old anti-Calvinistic cuss who will obstinately defend heresy rather than admit that I am wrong and accept correction from one of those dreaded Calvinists.

:jawdrop:

C. is the right answer, Jesus had both a Divine and Human Nature but, like all hypocrites...

Sozo said:
The problem with a religious cult, like Calvinism, is that they are unteachable.
...you are the very thing you accuse other's of being, unteachable.
 

S0ZO

New member
What bible are you reading, mine says Jesus is a man.
So does mine, but it NEVER says that Jesus has a human soul. Never, not once. You make it up to keep in step with your satanic cult.

It says so in 1 Tim 2:5
And you are a lying pervert. I affirm and have repeatedly affirmed that Jesus is a man. A man without two natures, two minds, two wills, or two souls. Just because YOU believe that God CANNOT become a man and retain His own nature, does not make it true. But I understand why it is important for you to create a false Jesus to go along with your false gospel.
Jesus was a human man, with a human soul.
No biblical support, whatsoever.

God speaks of Himself having a soul. (I hope you try and deny this).

Jesus said that His soul was troubled (John 12:27).
Yep, but it does not say that He has two souls, two minds, two wills, or two natures. Again, it's all just part of your false Jesus, false god, and false gospel that makes up your cult.

Jesus is One Person with Two Natures and to claim otherwise makes you a heretic.
Jesus is One person with ONE nature. To claim otherwise not only makes YOU a heretic, but is NEVER supported by the Bible.

And also an idiot who can't comprehend the most basic of truths such as the fact that all true humans possess a human nature.

Which means that, as a confirmed and obstinate heretic, you don't add anything to a genuine Christian discussion of doctrine anymore.
You don't know Jesus from Adam, so the only "heretic" in regards to being a Christian is YOU.

You have no idea who Jesus is.
You have no idea who God is.
You have no idea what the Gospel is.
You have no idea what a Christian is.

You are just a follower of a satanic religion devised by demonically inspired men who NEVER got their ideas from the Bible.


You mean like the 5 or 6 guys who buy your perverted, cultic, heretical doctrine of Jesus the avatar. You perverted huckster. If you refuse to repent of ignorance then at least stop trying to drag people on this board into hell with you.
Between you and I, I'm the only one who believes in the Jesus of the Bible. You believe in the creeds of men, who reject the Bible.

It is YOU, not I, who is going straight to hell. You and your whole demonically inspired family. You should be ashamed of yourself for dragging your children to hell.


The bible says Jesus is a man.
Yep, a man who has the nature of God, with one mind, one soul, and one Spirit. Not your extra-biblical double-minded Jesus, for your double-minded religion.


In fact, when a persons dies (like you tried to hypocritically lecture me about) the human soul departs from the human body. So even a man who has died physically still exists as a human soul.
And there you have it! :rotfl:.

You just admitted that your god changed into a human soul, that is eternally someone He was once not.

Having a human soul is necessary for being a man!
Humans have a spirit. Was Jesus conceived of a human spirit or the Holy Spirit? I'll be waiting as you find a "creed" to answer that one for you :chuckle:
 
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