glorydaz
Well-known member
Right you are, Artie. None of us are exempt from exhibiting the sin of pride.
It's a sneaky fault, though. Very sneaky.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Right you are, Artie. None of us are exempt from exhibiting the sin of pride.
It's a sneaky fault, though. Very sneaky.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So is this Calvin or Reformed?
“The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-
Punishment=Kolasis
Kolasis=
Correction.
Punishment.
Penalty.
Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo
Kolazo=
To lop or prune, as trees and wings.
To curb, check, restrain.
To chastise. To correct. Punishment .
To cause to be punished.
Correction=
Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.
Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.
Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.
Treatment of a specific defect.
The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.
A rebuke for making a mistake.
The act of punishing.
Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.
The act or process of correcting.
Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.
Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.
Amendation.
Rectification.
Rectification=
To set right. To correct.
To purify.
To correct by removing errors.
To adjust.
A quantity applied by way of correcting.
The act or process of correcting.
Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.
Amendation.
To correct something or make something right.
The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.
To correct by calculation or adjustment.
To adjust.
To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.
The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.
“Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”
Fitted= Katartizo=
To mend what has been broken or rent.
To repair.
To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.
To make one what he aught to be.
" In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Ummm... You’re the one who adamantly said I had no clue. Just correcting you appropriately.
Wow, yourself. And your heresies.
Dear P.P.S. The entire TOL membership applaud you!
"I am among the most qualified linguists, semioticists, exegetes, historians, and apologists on TOL."
As a top exegete you should have zero difficulty answering the following....
What does the Apostle St. Paul declare shall be commanded and taught?
"Command and teach" ??
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The answer to this question can only be found in the contemplation of what is the reason for and the purpose of time, enjoy.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Unbelievers are in spiritual death while physically alive unless and until they are resurrected unto spiritual life in this physical life.
You don’t define “separate”, and “the supreme being” seems to be an atheistic reference to ignore the one true God.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I doubt you speak for “the entire TOL membership” in any matter whatsoever.
Are you attempting to refer to 1 Timothy 4:11+, wherein the Apostle Paul is directly addressing Timothy personally in a Pastoral Epistle (and not you or me or the remainder of humanity for all ages) in regards to how to conduct himself as a pastor in his youth?
You might want to work on your hermeneutics instead of fallacious proof-texting to avoid actual subject matter on the thread topic while thinking you’re accomplishing condescension.
Everlasting torment (by its appropriate definition and undertanding) is biblical doctrine, and has been the authentic Apostolic and Patristic position of the Church for nearly two millennia.
You neither understand it nor want to comprehend it for what it actually is. And meanwhile, after dismissing me as clueless, you now want to engage in logical fallacy toward/about me because I dared clarify that I’m not a novice as you are after your arrogant condescension in complete heresy.
Go argue with a post or a wall, neophyte. ECT (understood or not) is ancient authentic orthodox Christian doctrine, and it represents the love and mercy of God in the judgment that men have brought upon themselves.
Man has this physical life in which to be resurrected spiritually unto life everlasting rather than everlasting spiritual death. God’s mercy rejoices against judgment for all everlasting on behalf of all the unbelieving who are perishing apart from His prosopon (presence).
Their “torment” is experiencing God’s love and mercy externally, while being unable to ever partake of the divine nature by inward hypostatic translation/transformation. You literally don’t know what anything is or means.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It has been said that, “Time is the fire in which we burn.”
Our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29). Fire (puros) refers to purification. So all who are translated into Christ by faith (in their physical lives) are hypostatically joined to Christ for all everlasting. Being IN Christ, they are “in” the consuming fire that purges all impurity of sin and iniquity for all everlasting. Thus they are not hurt of the second death.
The unbelieving (and the “fallen” host of unredeemable created celestial beings) are not IN Christ, and are therefore only in the enopion (presence) of God. So the torment of the unredeemed and unredeemable is that they remain bound by the lapsed form of chronological time in some manner rather than being engrafted into the timelessness of God as the adjectival manner in which Believers experience aeviternity as their changed state of being from God’s own ontology and perpetual grace.
The “torment” of the unregenerate/lost is that the consuming fire cannot consume them in any purgative manner; so they remain subject to all they imbibed in their physical lives. And for all everlasting, God still administers His incomparable love and mercy toward them externally as the fire that cannot be quenched. And so for them, it is the only degree of salvation from total separation that they can onotologically or economically know or experience in their corrupted state of being retained from their condition in their physical life.
To make God some merciless and malevolent hate-monger who is torturing multitudes for endless ages is to be utterly and completely clueless about anything presented in scripture or regarding the ancient doctrine of ECT in its proper context.
It’s human arrogance and entitlement that demands a different God according to the false “hell” they have presumed in gross ignorance.
Even the lost are “saved” from the most heinous existence that they could have for all aeviternity. And it is God’s love and mercy whereby that measure of “salvation” is administered. It would be exponentially more torturous were it not for God’s glorious mercy on their behalf.
Our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29). Fire (puros) refers to purification. So all who are translated into Christ by faith (in their physical lives) are hypostatically joined to Christ for all everlasting. Being IN Christ, they are “in” the consuming fire that purges all impurity of sin and iniquity for all everlasting. Thus they are not hurt of the second death.
The unbelieving (and the “fallen” host of unredeemable created celestial beings) are not IN Christ, and are therefore only in the enopion (presence) of God. So the torment of the unredeemed and unredeemable is that they remain bound by the lapsed form of chronological time in some manner rather than being engrafted into the timelessness of God as the adjectival manner in which Believers experience aeviternity as their changed state of being from God’s own ontology and perpetual grace.
The “torment” of the unregenerate/lost is that the consuming fire cannot consume them in any purgative manner; so they remain subject to all they imbibed in their physical lives. And for all everlasting, God still administers His incomparable love and mercy toward them externally as the fire that cannot be quenched. And so for them, it is the only degree of salvation from total separation that they can onotologically or economically know or experience in their corrupted state of being retained from their condition in their physical life.
To make God some merciless and malevolent hate-monger who is torturing multitudes for endless ages is to be utterly and completely clueless about anything presented in scripture or regarding the ancient doctrine of ECT in its proper context.
It’s human arrogance and entitlement that demands a different God according to the false “hell” they have presumed in gross ignorance.
Even the lost are “saved” from the most heinous existence that they could have for all aeviternity. And it is God’s love and mercy whereby that measure of “salvation” is administered. It would be exponentially more torturous were it not for God’s glorious mercy on their behalf.
Dear P.P.S. How do you determine what Scripture is "for you me or the remainder of humanity for all ages"??
Perhaps "eternal conscious torment" was written by a pastor in his youth.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I don’t. I allow appropriate and legitimate hermeneutics determine it rather than my selective and subjective opinions.
But very basically, ALL scripture was written TO a then-contemporary audience and FOR all Believers of all ages. Most are very easy to determine if one isn’t a novice utilizing text-to-reader expectations from personal eisegesis (as you, and many others, constantly do).
Paul is directly addressing Timothy in that passage. It has an application for all young Pastors, and to a lesser extent to young Believers in some sense.
But you’re no Timothy, and it isn’t directly applicable for you to attempt to bludgeon me or others with when you’re already diverting from the thread topic because of your overt and extreme ignorance that you won’t surrender to truth.
Perhaps all your subjective opinions were written by a pastor in his youth.
The truth stands. You don’t have any valid idea what ECT actually is or means, and you don’t want to know. You already have an adamant conceptual self-determination of things far beyond your linguistic and exegetical abilities, and you’re going to cling to that Reductionist drivel regardless. You’re not searching for truth, and you have no intention of ever yielding to the depths of meaning in biblical lexicography or grammatical forms that contain all the meaning you’re oblivious to regarding these doctrinal topics.
ECT is God’s love and mercy on behalf of those who would otherwise be suffering far greater torment than if God didn’t cut short the consequences of their faithlessness and prevailing love of self. Salvation has a functional perimeter that is designed to be administered during physical life.
Annihilation defies the very meaning of the word thanatos (death). It is NEVER that or eradication or elimination or cessation of existence. But you’ll defy scripture and twist it to mean whatever you decide it must mean because that’s what you deduce that it must say based upon your convoluted subjective opinions from your corrupted epistemics.
There is NO valid argument. ECT is authentic ancient Christian doctrine. Annihilationism is not only heretical, it’s impossible according to lexicography.
The end. (Though likely not for you in all your heretical glory and splendor of self and innovation against the Christian faith.)
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
FL doesn't advocate annihilation but rather the restitution of all unto God. All the verbosity in the world isn't going to change that and are you at least open to the notion that God might just be able to restore all of creation without some being cast outside of it, your ideas of "ECT" notwithstanding?
Dear P.P.S. That was amazing. I now realize why you are in the distinctive status on TOL.
"I am among the most qualified linguists, semioticists, exegetes, historians, and apologists on TOL."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gobbledygook
"I am among the most qualified linguists, semioticists, exegetes, historians, and apologists on TOL."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gobbledygook
Dear A.B. Much thanks.
"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the mystery of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…"
Mystery=
Musterion=
Denotes, not the mysterious (as with the English word) but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.
"The mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations..."
way 2 go
Well-known member
and now back to his irregular programming
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Unless that's supposed to be deliberately ironic, which I highly doubt, you may want to check your grammar and spelling there.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I’m only “open” to that which the divinely inspired text says, confirmed by and through Apostolic and Patristic doctrine.
Universal Reconciliation is no more biblically possible than Annihilationism; so no, I’m not open to that heresy.