Doormat
New member
You are welcome to defend your beliefs, or don't. It's up to you. :e4e:
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
You are welcome to defend your beliefs, or don't. It's up to you. :e4e:
No, that was his argument. my argument is that death is a punishment. That's why there is a "death row". And death is forever, so it is eternal. Ergo, death is an eternal punishment. He was biffed because I said that Jesus never said there was eternal conscious torment in hell. So he rips off a post saying that I should repent of tearing the pages out of my Bible because Jesus sure nuff did say say there was eternal conscious torment in hell, then he posts something that DOESN'T SAY THAT.
So I gave it back to him, and rightly so.
But, I don't care what you guys think anymore. Believe whatever you want and God Bless You. Thanks to the moron who called me a troll, right back at you, you idiot.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It doesn't?!?
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Yeah, everlasting punishment. It says that. He would have said that they no longer existed if that were the case, and so would the rest of the Scriptures which point to ECT. They don't.
To be cast into hellfire and be burnt up is a punishment that is everlasting, however to stand before God in your sins is a terrifying experience as it is.
LA
LA
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
What do not understand about the word consume.
LA
They do.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
LA
Doormat
New member
If the story is literal, he had a tongue, a nervous system, wanted literal water to cool him, and was being tormented by literal flames. If the story is not literal, it is a parable.
It is a logical fallacy.
I believe God is real because He has revealed Himself to me through Christ, and what He revealed explains my experience.
The scriptures answered all my questions, and even without them ...
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Why would that matter? A parable can contain proper names. Numbers 23:7 contains five proper names.
"... a certain rich man ..." See also Luke 12:16 and Luke 16:1.
And where were those covetous Pharisees that Jesus was addressing by telling them the story? Dead in their sins. It fits the parable that Jesus was telling them.
In context, Jesus was telling the story to the covetous Pharisees, and Jesus only spoke to them in parables according to scripture.
Matthew 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
IMJerusha
New member
Whoa, back up the train! Tim, do you expect everyone to agree with your take? I just don't see how Scripture supports that. And while Yeshua didn't say there is eternal conscious torment in hell, He did say there is eternal punishment in hell. One would think that in order to experience that, one would have to be conscious in one way, shape or form, as in aware.
So, while I don't agree with you, I don't see you as a troll.
Doormat
New member
Jesus referred to Beelzebub. Did it mean he believed Beelzebub was real? No.
Doormat
New member
Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
The doctrine of Eternal conscious torment is built upon a mutitude of lies such as--
1. The soul is immortal.
2. The soul separates from the body when one is dead.
3. When a man dies he is not really dead.
4. Christ was alive when He was dead.
5. Christ did not entirely die (soul for souls), only His body died.
6. Jesus is God, so He could not die.
7. Jesus is a God/ man, and only the man part died.
8 The soul and spirit are interchangable, meaning the same thing.
It goes on and on and on but it all came from the spiritualists.
LA
1. The soul is immortal.
2. The soul separates from the body when one is dead.
3. When a man dies he is not really dead.
4. Christ was alive when He was dead.
5. Christ did not entirely die (soul for souls), only His body died.
6. Jesus is God, so He could not die.
7. Jesus is a God/ man, and only the man part died.
8 The soul and spirit are interchangable, meaning the same thing.
It goes on and on and on but it all came from the spiritualists.
LA
keypurr
Well-known member
The Dead are Dead. They know nothing.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Santa and the Easter Bunny are false also. That was very hard to accept.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Santa and the Easter Bunny are false also. That was very hard to accept.
A conversation has 2 sides, when you refuse to communicate on your side, the conversation is over.
Doormat
New member
Please provide some examples of what you are thinking.
The destruction Peter is describing in 2 Peter 3:7-12 appears to be annihilation.
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
That describes annihilation like 2 Peter 3:7-12. What do you believe "if anyone's work is burned" and "suffer loss" mean, if not what they state?
Why do you compare unbelievers to the burning bush? You should compare unbelievers to the men who were burned up when they threw the three worthies into the fiery furnace. The wicked will be burned up on the Day of the Lord according to prophecy.
Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
JWs and SDAs.
God said Adam would die the day he ate. He continued to exist and died centuries later. Adam died spiritually and was relationally separated from God before he died physically.
Death is separation, not cessation. You have a wrong view of spirit-soul also (which has implications for many other doctrines including after life issues).
Punishment for life in jail is not cessation the day you go to jail.
Everlasting life grammatically parallels everlasting punishment. Using your logic, eternal life should cease. Your loop hole that the effects of the punishment are forever is strained and laughable.
Your arguments are specious. Using your illogic, we are denying the trinity because we say 'God'. We are adding trinity every time we see the word 'God' or we are failing to add it when we say 'God'? Eternal punishment and eternal life can be described in principle with more words. The Bible teaches trinity whether the word is used or whether every mention of God is explicit about it. ECT is established by all relevant verses, not by having to have the words explicitly there (just as your view does not explicitly say the opposite or annihilation, etc.).
:dead: Oh brother.