Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

So you have an example where throwing someone into a huge fire not only doesn't kill them, but prolongs their life indefinitely? Or for at least hundreds of years without food or water?

There is no indefinately, and you have not seriously read what I have said.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet entered there into the fires of hell at the beginning of the thousand years.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

That is the general theme--

Just punishment before annihilation.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.



LA

 

[Rosenritter]

There is no indefinately, and you have not seriously read what I have said.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet entered there into the fires of hell at the beginning of the thousand years.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

That is the general theme--

Just punishment before annihilation.

LA

Lazy, I am going to take a guess at you are reading that and respond accordingly. It sounds like you are thinking that passage says that "the beast and the false prophet live within the lake of fire" rather than that they were cast into the lake of fire and summarily burnt up, as we know that fires are wont to do.

The reference "where the beast and the false prophet" requires a verb of some sort in English. King James uses the word "are" which implies that the very lake is the resting place of the beast and the false prophet.... or at least the remains of those whom those symbols represent. Tyndale chooses the word "were" as the filler verb because the beast and false prophet no longer exist after entering those flames. The actual Greek has no word at all in that place, simply the "and shall be tormented" which grammatically points to the devil.

Revelation 20:10 Tyndale
(10) and the devyll that desceaved them was cast into a lake of fyre and brymstone where the beest and the falce prophet were and shalbe tormented daye and nyght for ever more.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rather than go on for ever and lose the attention span of whomever is reading, the short and simple point is that Revelation 20:10 does not establish that anything survived or continued to live in that flame. It's simply saying it's the same place of designated destruction as where God cast the beast and false prophet during the showdown with the armies of the world.

By the way, there is absolutely no reference to anyone being tormented in the lake of fire before the judgment, and for that matter, the only being said to endure torment in the judgment is the devil. He isn't burnt up until the very end. I think that the torment is not because of the fire, but from being brought low in front of the billions he has deceived over the last 6000 years. Those that are his are cast to him and destroyed. He is destroyed last, out of necessity.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

LA

 

[way 2 go]

must be the rich mans spirit in the fire as his body is in the ground
:think:
the rich mans spirit is not being burned up .

 

[Rosenritter]

must be the rich mans spirit in the fire as his body is in the ground
:think:
the rich mans spirit is not being burned up .

Can't be that Way 2 Go, for it is written, that when a man dies he returns to his earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 KJV
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Seems to me that God has told us that man "IS" dust. Nothing in there about spirits being burned in fire, but if you chose to ignore what God has told you in that many words in scripture, and suppose that God's spirit is the actual man himself, it says it returns to God. I suppose you must think that means "everyone goes to heaven?" No telling what you're thinking.

Job 34:14-15 KJV
(14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
(15) All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psalms 104:29-30 KJV
(29) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
(30) Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psalms 146:3-4 KJV
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Mr. Go, if you want to convince anyone here that man has a "spirit" that lives and never dies, you need to present some sort of evidence. Not an element of a parable where the trees talk or rich Jews awaken in a Greek Hades. Not Catholic tradition or rulings of an ancient Pope, but actual scripture that 1) clearly states what you are trying to prove and 2) somehow manages to nullify the many passages in the rest of scripture that tells us that the dead are clearly dead, beyond the reach of thought, feeling, or consciousness.

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus never lied

these men both died
these men both found themselves living after they had died


Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus is qualified to speak of hell
and spirits being disembodied
if you don't believe him you won't
believe anybody.

the truth is there is no opportunity of grace for the rich man, the unrepentant.

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus never lied

these men both died
these men both found themselves living after they had died


Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus is qualified to speak of hell
and spirits being disembodied
if you don't believe him you won't
believe anybody.

the truth is there is no opportunity of grace for the rich man, the unrepentant.

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

Way 2 Go, so if "Jesus never lied" (your words) then who was the man that married the ten virgins? And I take it that it really happened that the other rich man returned and praised his servant for embezzling his goods and cancelling his debts to his other debtors? It doesn't seem that you understand the concept that a parable, by definition, invokes a fictional setting.

 

[daqq]

Jesus never lied

these men both died
these men both found themselves living after they had died

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus is qualified to speak of hell
and spirits being disembodied
if you don't believe him you won't
believe anybody.

the truth is there is no opportunity of grace for the rich man, the unrepentant.

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

Pretty sure this was already mentioned and yet you also left out the punch line for the whole parable:

Luke 17:1-4 KJV
1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Lazarus is therefore "one of these little ones" which are the "fellow-members" of your own household, and according to the parables and allegories they are likewise considered "fellow-servants" and even "brothers", while you are the "porter" of the door of your "house" which is a body-temple analogy, (again, see Mark 13:33-37). The following is clearly a companion passage to the above:

Matthew 18:6-11 KJV
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

And therefore just as previously stated Paul speaks of this allegory in the following passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-6 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. [Because in the heavens their angels do always behold the Father who is in the heavens!]

:sheep:

 

[marhig]

So you have an example where throwing someone into a huge fire not only doesn't kill them, but prolongs their life indefinitely? Or for at least hundreds of years without food or water?

What if that fire is lust? We are tried by fire in this lifetime and with the strength of Christ by the spirit we don't burn, this isn't a natural fire, and if we deny our flesh Christ will give us the strength to overcome. But without him, we burn in the lusts of our flesh and we're overcome by Satan. So what if, when we die after disobeying God and turning from him, we are then confronted with that fire that we are tried with in the flesh, but God isn't protecting us, what do you think will happen?

 

[Rosenritter]

What if that fire is lust? We are tried by fire in this lifetime and with the strength of Christ by the spirit we don't burn, this isn't a natural fire, if we deny our flesh Christ will give us the strength to overcome. But without him, we burn in the lusts of our flesh and we're overcome by Satan. So what if, when we die after disobeying God and turning from him, we are then confronted with that fire that we are tried with in the flesh, but God isn't protecting us, what do you think will happen?

God doesn't pitch the wicked into a lake of lust in the judgment at the end of the world...

 

[marhig]

God doesn't pitch the wicked into a lake of lust in the judgment at the end of the world...

I so want to tell you what all that means, but I can't. I can only go exactly by the scriptures here. I hope God shows you what that means. But people are looking too deeply. We are being tested here and now, And Satan is our stumblingblock, and God wants us to deny him and our sins within and if we obey him, Christ will give us the strength to overcome, because he's overcome the world. God wants our hearts cleansed, not sat in filth saying Jesus has done it all for me. If we're not fighting our lusts and changing and our hearts aren't being cleansed, if we're not becoming more innocent then we haven't got the spirit, and if we have got the spirit and we go back to living by our flesh, then we won't have him for long!

That judgement begins now, Once we know God. Do you understand what I mean by this? Can you see?

 

[Rosenritter]

I so want to tell you what all that means, but I can't. I can only go exactly by the scriptures here. I hope God shows you what that means. But people are looking too deeply. We are being tested here and now, And Satan is our stumblingblock, and God wants us to deny him and our sins within and if we obey him, Christ will give us the strength to overcome, because he's overcome the world. God wants our hearts cleansed, not sat in filth saying Jesus has done it all for me. If we're not fighting our lusts and changing and our hearts aren't being cleansed, if we're not becoming more innocent then we haven't got the spirit, and if we have got the spirit and we go back to living by our flesh, then we won't have him for long!

That judgement begins now, Once we know God. Do you understand what I mean by this? Can you see?

Hypothetically, if you find yourself standing before God, and he tells you that you were dead and he raised you to life, this would conflict with what you believed previously. But would you want to be dead again, or would you be happy to live?

 

[way 2 go]

Mat 25:1**Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

no lie here.
virgins exist
lamps exist
bridegrooms exist

Luk 16:7**Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
Luk 16:8**The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.

no lie here.
measures of wheat exist
debtors exist
bills exist
owners and managers exist
managers being dishonest exist

:think:

Luk 16:22**The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23**and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24**And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'


Jesus talks about things that exist such as:

A place referred to as Abraham's side, existed.

A place referred to as Hades, exist.

people having died and finding themselves alive,some people deny
this truth

A persons spirit being in flame and not burning up,
some people deny this truth

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Mat 25:1**Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Hypothetically, if you find yourself standing before God, and he tells you that you were dead and he raised you to life, this would conflict with what you believed previously. But would you want to be dead again, or would you be happy to live?

I so want to tell you what all that means, but I can't.

Pretty sure this was already mentioned and yet you also left out the punch line for the whole parable:

Links to scripture that tie together.

Matthew 10:28

Hebrews 12:29

Song of Solomon 8:6

1 John 4:8

Joel 2:12-14


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

I so want to tell you what all that means, but I can't. I can only go exactly by the scriptures here. I hope God shows you what that means. But people are looking too deeply. We are being tested here and now, And Satan is our stumblingblock, and God wants us to deny him and our sins within and if we obey him, Christ will give us the strength to overcome, because he's overcome the world. God wants our hearts cleansed, not sat in filth saying Jesus has done it all for me. If we're not fighting our lusts and changing and our hearts aren't being cleansed, if we're not becoming more innocent then we haven't got the spirit, and if we have got the spirit and we go back to living by our flesh, then we won't have him for long!

That judgement begins now, Once we know God. Do you understand what I mean by this? Can you see?

Marhig,

I found that the Judgment stopped, the minute I knew the Lord.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Rosenritter]

Mat 25:1**Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

no lie here.
virgins exist
lamps exist
bridegrooms exist

Luk 16:7**Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
Luk 16:8**The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.

no lie here.
measures of wheat exist
debtors exist
bills exist
owners and managers exist
managers being dishonest exist

:think:

Luk 16:22**The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23**and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24**And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'


Jesus talks about things that exist such as:

A place referred to as Abraham's side, existed.

A place referred to as Hades, exist.

people having died and finding themselves alive,some people deny
this truth

A persons spirit being in flame and not burning up,
some people deny this truth

Yes, flames exist and eyes exist and angels exist. But "flames of Hades" is drawn from the Greek mythology and only exists within that parable.

Yes, weddings exist and virgins exist, but ten virgins marrying the same man and being turned away if they didn't have oil only exists within that parable.

Yes, trees exist and talking exists but talking trees (also an element of pagan mythology) only exists within two parables.

You must really love the idea of torturing someone without end to be trying so hard for this.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Yes, flames exist and eyes exist and angels exist. But "flames of Hades" is drawn from the Greek mythology and only exists within that parable.

Yes, weddings exist and virgins exist, but ten virgins marrying the same man and being turned away if they didn't have oil only exists within that parable.

Yes, trees exist and talking exists but talking trees (also an element of pagan mythology) only exists within two parables.

You must really love the idea of torturing someone without end to be trying so hard for this.

Perhaps people misunderstand the flames. Could you please check my scriptures and tell me what you think? Link Here


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[Rosenritter]

Perhaps people misunderstand the flames. Could you please check my scriptures and tell me what you think? Link Here


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

Fair enough request.

Matthew 10:28 speaks of hell fire. What is hell fire? Jesus says that it destroys both body and soul.

Hebrews 12:29 uses a metaphor, our God is a consuming fire. Obviously God is not actual fire, but it draws on God's promise to destroy the wicked. Consume, by definition, means that the fire eats it up and does not leave anything behind. Hell fire.

Song of Solomon is a love poem. Flames of passion (or jealousy) are not the same thing, thus this reference is out of place.

Son 8:6 KJV
(6) Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

1 John 4:8, God is love. That is his character. It does not mean Fire = God, God = Love, Fire = Love in a trinity of emotion. Those are two completely different types of fires, and God may have to destroy those that are incompatible with Love.

Joel 2:12, God accepts repentance. But it has a big IF. That IF is IF we turn to him. If that repentance is lacking, he shall not show mercy.

Joe 2:12-14 KJV
(12) Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
(13) And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
(14) Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

I don't think I am misunderstanding the flames. Hell fire destroys body and soul, leaves neither root nor branch, it consumes the wicked like tares or stubble. Flames of passion are a metaphor for warm and powerful emotion, which by definition does not destroy.

Jesus also says that he is the vine, and we are the branches. But a vine is a green leaf that needs the sun to survive and dies without water. Metaphors are only meant to be taken so far. And in the case of Song of Solomon, that flame is completely unrelated to hell fire.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Fair enough request.

Matthew 10:28 speaks of hell fire. What is hell fire? Jesus says that it destroys both body and soul.

Hebrews 12:29 uses a metaphor, our God is a consuming fire. Obviously God is not actual fire, but it draws on God's promise to destroy the wicked. Consume, by definition, means that the fire eats it up and does not leave anything behind. Hell fire.

Song of Solomon is a love poem. Flames of passion (or jealousy) are not the same thing, thus this reference is out of place.

Son 8:6 KJV
(6) Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

1 John 4:8, God is love. That is his character. It does not mean Fire = God, God = Love, Fire = Love in a trinity of emotion. Those are two completely different types of fires, and God may have to destroy those that are incompatible with Love.

Joel 2:12, God accepts repentance. But it has a big IF. That IF is IF we turn to him. If that repentance is lacking, he shall not show mercy.

Joe 2:12-14 KJV
(12) Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
(13) And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
(14) Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

I don't think I am misunderstanding the flames. Hell fire destroys body and soul, leaves neither root nor branch, it consumes the wicked like tares or stubble. Flames of passion are a metaphor for warm and powerful emotion, which by definition does not destroy.

Jesus also says that he is the vine, and we are the branches. But a vine is a green leaf that needs the sun to survive and dies without water. Metaphors are only meant to be taken so far. And in the case of Song of Solomon, that flame is completely unrelated to hell fire.

I wasn't suggesting you misunderstand the flames. I was suggesting that those who believe He would propagate eternal torture are misunderstanding God.

[emoji846]

I love your exposition of the verses.

I'm actually suggesting that God's Love is the consuming fire that burns up the iniquity of hate in man's heart.

I'm also suggesting that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is the sorrow of people that misrepresented God by suggesting His nature is anything other than Love.

I don't believe in eternal torture either.

I know God purchased our free will with His Love and Died to prove His Love as well.

I know that people can be so hateful that they would spit in God's loving face and desire to perish, rather then admit the error of the hatred in their hearts.

I'm implying that the presence of God IS the consuming fire, and when He returns, the strife of many will be burned up by the Truth revealed before the close of this kingdom of dust.

[emoji3]


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Rosenritter]

I wasn't suggesting you misunderstand the flames. I was suggesting that those who believe He would propagate eternal torture are misunderstanding God.

[emoji846]

I love your exposition of the verses.

I'm actually suggesting that God's Love is the consuming fire that burns up the iniquity of hate in man's heart.

I'm also suggesting that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is the sorrow of people that misrepresented God by suggesting His nature is anything other than Love.

I don't believe in eternal torture either.

I know God purchased our free will with His Love and Died to prove His Love as well.

I know that people can be so hateful that they would spit in God's loving face and desire to perish, rather then admit the error of the hatred in their hearts.

I'm implying that the presence of God IS the consuming fire, and when He returns, the strife of many will be burned up by the Truth revealed before the close of this kingdom of dust.

[emoji3]


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

That is an interesting romantic metaphor that may have application in those that would come when "all that thirst may drink" but it doesn't nullify the clear promises to destroy the wicked and unrepentant themselves. "Neither root nor branch" means the whole thing. Wheat and tares are likened to individuals, as with sheep and goats. Isaiah and Jesus speak of actual literal corpses being burnt up and consumed.