Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
why would they object to the truth?
here's just a single example of your retardedness:
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
support for 'conditional immortality',...learn the terms
support for 'conditional immortality',...learn the terms
I don't what point is trying to be made here,...of course a child as long as conscious will feel the pain of being dipped into molten lava, as long as the soul-spirit of that child is connected with its physical body, until the point of 'death' when all sensory connection with that body of matter is dis-connected (as when the spirit/consciousness leaves that body). The child as far as its physical condition 'dies'.
Btw,...the word Jesus used most that was later translated into the English word 'hell' was 'Gehenna',......it was the valley of hinnom where trash, bodies, refuse were dumped and burned, and in ancient times child sacrifices were made there too, so it was a cursed area. The fires that burned there consumed/incinerated the 'matterial' dumped into it,....the material there was transformed, disintegrated, turned to ash, and whatever flesh was not burned was naturally eaten by worms/maggots. Note the dead bodies there are not experiencing endless agony or torment in some kind of suspended state....they are 'burned up' and are no more.
If you want to freely examine the biblical support for 'conditional immortality', you can begin here. Research for yourself.
support for 'conditional immortality',...learn the terms
I don't what point is trying to be made here,...of course a child as long as conscious will feel the pain of being dipped into molten lava, as long as the soul-spirit of that child is connected with its physical body, until the point of 'death' when all sensory connection with that body of matter is dis-connected (as when the spirit/consciousness leaves that body). The child as far as its physical condition 'dies'.
Btw,...the word Jesus used most that was later translated into the English word 'hell' was 'Gehenna',......it was the valley of hinnom where trash, bodies, refuse were dumped and burned, and in ancient times child sacrifices were made there too, so it was a cursed area. The fires that burned there consumed/incinerated the 'matterial' dumped into it,....the material there was transformed, disintegrated, turned to ash, and whatever flesh was not burned was naturally eaten by worms/maggots. Note the dead bodies there are not experiencing endless agony or torment in some kind of suspended state....they are 'burned up' and are no more.
If you want to freely examine the biblical support for 'conditional immortality', you can begin here. Research for yourself.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Yes,....I believe 'God' is perfectly just and merciful, ruling all by divine love and wisdom.
My path is what it is, and will be directed by life in its way of evolution and progress, since it is a learning experience. In this thread we are exposing ECT for being immoral and irrational.
Beyond ECT, people who use the bible for their belief system also see its support for 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism'...so there are different points of view or beliefs about the destiny of souls, whether some actually suffer a second death (disintegration) or are ultimate/eventually saved thru the fire of suffering or purification. These are all speculations with varying degrees of scriptural support, some more valid or probable than others.
RCLady
New member
Does Hell exist?
Is Hell a real place where the Damned will suffer for all eternity?
Obviously yes, as God (the Blessed Trinity) makes quite clear in the Bible:
'And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand; He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name.'
(Apocalypse 14:9-11)
'The enemies of the Lord have lied to him: and their time shall be for ever.'
(Psalms 80:16)
'For the Lord Almighty will take revenge on them, in the day of judgment he will visit them. For he will give fire, and worms into their flesh, that they may burn, and may feel for ever.'
(Judith 16:20 -21)
'Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.'
(Luke 3:17)
'And I say to you, my friends: Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.'
(Luke 12:4-5)
'But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.'
(Mark 3:29)
'And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.'
(Mark 9:42-47)
'And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matthew 25:30)
'Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.'
(Matthew 25:41-46)
'. . . in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God these will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power. . . '
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
St. Justin Marytr: 'We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire.'
St. Alphonsus Liguori: 'Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning.'
I've answered it before, and I will answer it again. A child who is thrown into molten lava is burnt up by the lava and does not suffer in it.
Now consider this, which you have never been able to answer:
How is a child who has been burnt up by molten lava able to feel suffering in the molten lava?
Your question is not relevant to the discussion of whether eternal conscious torment is biblical or not. Nor are your insults.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I suppose tares look like wheat and one human as another, who can see the heart to tell the difference?
Wicked people deserve eternal punishment if they will not repent.
What will false teachers deserve who strengthen the resolve of sinners? who say "go in peace, it will be well with you"
Derf
Well-known member
Why is that? If we are judged according to our deeds (2 Cor 5:10 and Rom 2:6), why would we also deserve eternal punishment for not repenting. Is not repenting an additional bad deed that's worse than the others? It might be, but it seems more like it's a continuation of the other bad deeds, and therefore doesn't deserve a worse punishment than those others.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Derf
Well-known member
Yes, of course, but are we understanding both sides of the argument.
If any of us say "scripture says", then they need to make sure we are reading all of scripture. So if the wages of sin is "death" do we understand fully what "death means. ECTers say "death" is "spiritual death". Ok, and Timotheos is saying "death" means that thing which has died has ceased to function. What is a spirit that has ceased to function?
On the other hand, is anybody going to be tortured forever? If anybody is, is it a just punishment? How do we decide what a "just" punishment is?
Exactly! Way to go!
The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious punishment). Exactly!
The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sin brings death as it's "reward". Repentance brings eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You see, I haven't been saying anything other than what the Bible itself says.
Snake
You just give a different meaning to death than the bible gives, you know that so snake is an appropiate description
You just give a different meaning to death than the bible gives, you know that so snake is an appropiate description
No, I don't.
Why don't you show from the Bible that "death" really means "eternal conscious torment in hell"?
In the meantime, here is the definition of "death":
"the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism"
As you can clearly see in the definition of death, "Death" does not mean "eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever".
I see that you are able to insult me, typical of ECTists, but you are not able to support your position with scripture. Do you think that insulting me strengthens your argument in any way whatsover? It doesn't. IF you had ANY evidence you would have given it instead of insults. Therefore, you have no evidence for your false belief.
Jesus said "You will know them by their fruits". I know you by your fruit of empty insults. If you would discuss this properly, instead of calling me a snake, you would get farther along in convincing me that the Bible doesn't really mean exactly what it says. I don't think you would convince me, but at least then I would have more (or any) respect for you. As it stands, you just appear to be a person who doesn't know what she is talking about, but likes to insult people.
We have shown you many times in scripture so don't lie
I'm sorry my insulting friend, but you have not.
The fact is that the Bible never ever defines death as eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever. Not even once.
Have a nice day.
You just slither around it as though we didn't
Derf
Well-known member
You lose the argument by jumping to epithets so quickly. If you have a better definition of death, especially from scripture, show him.