God's Truth
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The scripture says the smoke from their torment will rise for ever and ever.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
The scripture says the smoke from their torment will rise for ever and ever.
Yes, and it doesn't say that their torment will last forever. It says the smoke from their torment will ascend forever. The SMOKE will ascend forever. The SMOKE, not the torment. The smoke. Do you understand this? It doesn't say the torment will last forever. Understand?
Also, recall the Bible says that the wicked will be completely destroyed. Please don't ignore that. Remember that Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in hell. Remember that Jesus said the way is wide that leads to DESTRUCTIOn (Not torture in hell).
And Remember that your verse (the one YOU said I ignored) doesn't SAY their torment lasts forever, it says the SMOKE ascends forever. Maybe this means the torture lasts forever and maybe it doesn't, BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE TORTURE LASTS FOREVER!
GuySmiley
Well-known member
Can you explain why you posted a verse that proves the soul can be destroyed when you are trying to say the opposite? :chuckle:
Do you believe death is a punishment? I do. I believe death, after the second death for people who receive it, will be eternal.
I'm no expert on worms in hell. Are you really basing your theology on the behavior of worms in hell?
After that maybe nobody can die? Is there a problem with that?
The plain reading of so many verses is that the two options for us after life is death or eternal life. You guys have to use verses for which you stretch the meanings to support your view. I'll take the plain meaning of many verses over the stretched, contorted, interpolated meaning of a few (really only one) verses.
GuySmiley
Well-known member
No, and I'm glad you showed up because it's not too late to stop me from adopting this.
Great verses! What does it have to do with the topic? I need some commentary here.
This I think is the single strongest verse in favor of ECT. It is, I think, the only verse even appearing to support ECT. It's all alone, trying to support ECT. And its a stretch to read it that way, making the belief of ECT very weak in my mind. However many verses when read plainly and taken at face value support annihilationism.
I don't change my mind on these matters lightly, but this seems to be a slam dunk so far.
we're talking about those whom God is determined to utterly destroy
what's the point in limited torture if it's followed by annihilation?
seems more twisted than eternal torture
if you're gonna kill a bug, do you pull its wings and legs off first or do you just squish it?
what's the point in limited torture if it's followed by annihilation?
seems more twisted than eternal torture
if you're gonna kill a bug, do you pull its wings and legs off first or do you just squish it?
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God's Word? Why does it matter to me? Is that your question?
why does it matter to you that others accept your particular interpretation of this obscure aspect of God's plan?
God's Truth
New member
I understand what you are saying but you are wrong.
The scripture says the smoke of their torment. If they are not tormented any longer, how is it there will be smoke of their torment rising up for ever and ever?
It is hell being separated from the love of God.
Destroy does not always mean cease to exist anywhere.
Jason0047
Member
Well, because it speaks about the good character of God.
ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) goes against the idea that the Lord our God is a good God and a fair and just Judge. For punishing somebody for an infinite amount of time for a finite amount of sin or crimes does not sound like fair justice. Also, torturing people in flames forever does not sound like it is consistent with a God who is supposed to be the very embodiment of love itself (1 John 4:8), too.
Side Note:
For usually all bad theology attempts to attack God or His goodness in some way.
but a God who punishes before annihlilation does?
God's Truth
New member
Timotheos says we do not live on after the death of our physical bodies. I showed him a scripture that tells us the spirit could not be killed by humans.
Again, however, destroy does not always been to no longer exist anywhere.
You did not answer my question. Could you explain how being punished is eternal if it results in death.
So then, you have no answer for your belief concerning this scripture.
Why do you say after that? The scripture has people being put into the lake of fire after death is put there.
With that argument, it sounds as if you are merely denying what the scriptures say.
Thanks for trying to answer my questions. I am not convinced that anyone ceases to exist ever.
Jason0047
Member
I believe in,
"The Real Hell (Torment not Torture) Conditionalism View"
Which is the belief that the Rich-Man was not actually being tortured inside any flames; Instead, he was being tormented (not tortured) by the heat of the flame in front of him within the gulf that separated him and Abraham. This view of course is followed by the belief that the Lake of Fire is Conditional whereby Jesus will eventually destroy both body and soul within Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
Matthew 10:28 ABPE (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”
In other words, the Rich-Man was merely being tormented (not tortured) for his crimes against God and man. When his unrepentant sin or crimes are done being paid for, he will then perish both body and soul in the Lake of Fire.
Jason0047
Member
In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.
Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. Abraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.
In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.
Abraham:
Rich Man:
Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. Abraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.
In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.
Abraham:
"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)
Rich Man:
"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)
In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).
GuySmiley
Well-known member
You have to believe destroy, death, perish, turn to ashes, consume, all mean the opposite of what they seem to mean to believe ECT. On the other hand I get to just believe they mean what they mean.
Death is a punishment. Death is eternal. Death is an eternal punishment. Not sure what else to say to make it more clear.
Yes I do. My answer is that the worms are eternal. I am unconvinced that you can extrapolate ECT from this verse, it just doesn't say that.
Interesting, Ill look at it.
If words don't mean things to you that they mean to me, there's not much point in talking to you. I could say the same about you. But you responded to me saying the exact opposite of what I said. You cant just build strawmen like that. I specifically said that I believe the plain and face value meaning of many verses. How do you get that I'm denying what scripture says? Are we speaking the same language? I have a feeling we wont be talking much in the future.
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Jason0047
Member
Another point I want to bring up is the popularity of Hell in light of Near Death Experiences.
For no doubt there are those who had visions of Hell with them seeing people burning there.
But I have one word for these types of people (who had near death experiences).
Faith.
For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6).
And how do we get faith?
From visions or the Word of God? (Romans 10:17).
In fact, in my experience: I have discovered that most near death experiences are false. Even from people who you might like, or consider their teaching to be helpful to you in some way. First, most of the time these near death experiences are refuted with Scripture by other believers. Second, does God want us to place our faith in what is popular such as near death experiences? See the popularity of books like "Heaven is for Real" and "Embraced by the Light." Is it possible that maybe the devil is trying to deceive people with these near death experiences? Third, divination or trying to contact the spirit world is forbidden within Scripture. In other words, seeing people in Hell is a divination of the dead. Saul had looked to a witch in trying to bring up Samuel from the dead. But no doubt, this was not the real Samuel but a demon. Also, the book of Revelation closes the book on any more words that should be added to His holy Word. In other words, a vision with new information are words that are an addition to God's Word. So when I hear about a person's vision about Heaven or Hell, I have to ask two questions: Are these not new words (in the form of a story) that adds to God's Word? What will happen to a person if they add to His Word? (Revelation 22:18).
For no doubt there are those who had visions of Hell with them seeing people burning there.
But I have one word for these types of people (who had near death experiences).
Faith.
For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6).
And how do we get faith?
From visions or the Word of God? (Romans 10:17).
In fact, in my experience: I have discovered that most near death experiences are false. Even from people who you might like, or consider their teaching to be helpful to you in some way. First, most of the time these near death experiences are refuted with Scripture by other believers. Second, does God want us to place our faith in what is popular such as near death experiences? See the popularity of books like "Heaven is for Real" and "Embraced by the Light." Is it possible that maybe the devil is trying to deceive people with these near death experiences? Third, divination or trying to contact the spirit world is forbidden within Scripture. In other words, seeing people in Hell is a divination of the dead. Saul had looked to a witch in trying to bring up Samuel from the dead. But no doubt, this was not the real Samuel but a demon. Also, the book of Revelation closes the book on any more words that should be added to His holy Word. In other words, a vision with new information are words that are an addition to God's Word. So when I hear about a person's vision about Heaven or Hell, I have to ask two questions: Are these not new words (in the form of a story) that adds to God's Word? What will happen to a person if they add to His Word? (Revelation 22:18).