Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Timotheos,

Never has before and still does not.

I have believed the Gospel as it was given and has been preserved unchanged by man. That does not quality as being Roman Catholic. However, you clearly hold to a view that was resurrected by man, an heretical view for the Church which is guided and guarded by the Holy Spirit.

You can hold to such a view, but it will never be the meaning of scripture as it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit.

I haven't ignored what scripture teaches, Scripture teaches exactly what I said. You must ignore scripture to come up with the doctrine that the wages of sin is NOT death but eternal conscious torment in hell instead of death. Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.

I already have explained it to you. You have not given any evidence to the contrary. Find an historical record that the death of Rom 6:23 is a physical death rather than a spiritual death. At the same time you need to show that the Church has always held this view.

You have not even come close to explaining what scripture means. You have adopted someone else's interpretation, probably with some nuances more acceptable to you. Give some evidence other than your opinion or some other modern guys opinion that scripture has always meant that death of Rom 6:23, or the Second Death, or a separation from God spiritually is always a physical death.

So, I accept the Gospel of Christ as He gave it, has preserved it, not some modern man's version of it. If I have not already mentioned it, the Church declared for the Orthodox that annihilationism is a heresy by the 5th Ecumenical Council.

Annihilationism? What's that? I believe that the wages of sin really is death, just as the Bible says. Has the 5th Ecumenical Council declared the Bible to be heresy now? Who are they anyway? Why should I believe them over the plain words of scripture? what were their reasons for rejecting Romans 6:23, John 3:15-16, and all of the other scriptures which prove that the lost will perish in the coming judgment?

Anyway, believe what you want. I believe that the wages of sin is death and the lost will perish just as the Bible says. I believe that only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life. If that makes me a heretic, then I am a heretic along with Jesus Christ.

Editted to Add:
I just read the 5th Council's decree and I find nothing in it condemning Conditional Immortality (the doctrine you like to call Annihilationism).
I get the distinct feeling that people will say anything to discredit a hated doctrine (Conditional Immortality) with actually knowing if what they say is true or not.
(I think you may be confusing Conditional Immortality with Universalism, a lot of people get to two doctrines mixed up.)

 

[Rightglory]

Annihilationism? What's that? I believe that the wages of sin really is death, just as the Bible says. Has the 5th Ecumenical Council declared the Bible to be heresy now? Who are they anyway? Why should I believe them over the plain words of scripture? what were their reasons for rejecting Romans 6:23, John 3:15-16, and all of the other scriptures which prove that the lost will perish in the coming judgment?

Anyway, believe what you want. I believe that the wages of sin is death and the lost will perish just as the Bible says. I believe that only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life. If that makes me a heretic, then I am a heretic along with Jesus Christ.

And man reigns supreme. His gospel is what is essential, not the Gospel of Christ as He gave it. True sola scripturist. Look around you, you have thousands of competitors who differ with your gospel. All have created their own worlds of reality. You are welcome to you gospel.

 

[Timotheos]

And man reigns supreme. His gospel is what is essential, not the Gospel of Christ as He gave it. True sola scripturist. Look around you, you have thousands of competitors who differ with your gospel. All have created their own worlds of reality. You are welcome to you gospel.

So you say that man's doctrine reigns supreme. you have given no evidence that the wages of sin is not death as declared in the Bible but instead is eternal conscious torment. You've made the claim that some council declared Annihilationism (Your word, not mine) is heresy, but you haven't proven that either.

I don't care how many people jump off a cliff into wrong doctrine, I believe what the Bible says, and the Bible says that the wages of sin is death and those who reject Jesus Christ will perish in the coming judgment.

You are welcome to believe in whatever the largest crowd believes. Where did Jesus Christ say that the biggest crowd was going? (Incidentally, it is not to "Eternal Torment in Hell", read Matthew 7:13)

I believe the words of Jesus Christ and the words of Scripture. You can follow the crowd if you like. What will you do if they change their minds?

 

[Timotheos]

I just read the 5th Council's decree and I find nothing in it condemning Conditional Immortality (the doctrine you like to call Annihilationism).
I get the distinct feeling that people will say anything to discredit a hated doctrine (Conditional Immortality) with actually knowing if what they say is true or not.
(I think you may be confusing Conditional Immortality with Universalism, a lot of people get to two doctrines mixed up.)

 

[chrysostom]

I just read the 5th Council's decree and I find nothing in it condemning Conditional Immortality (the doctrine you like to call Annihilationism).
I get the distinct feeling that people will say anything to discredit a hated doctrine (Conditional Immortality) with actually knowing if what they say is true or not.
(I think you may be confusing Conditional Immortality with Universalism, a lot of people get to two doctrines mixed up.)

I'm with you tim

 

[Timotheos]

I'm with you tim

Thanks, so the claim made that everyone else believes in eternal conscious torment is also false?

The trend is definitely away from ECT, if anyone determines truth by head count.

 

[freelight]

Sanity break......

Sanity break......

~*~*~


Hello all,

I see this thread is still going, and going, and going

My former contributions in the very thread hold here.

Remember,....God is Love, and is wholly just and merciful, being all wise and gracious as far as the eternal destiny of souls are concerned, governing the factors and mechanisms which determine such by universal laws and principles.

Free will liberties are allowed within certain parameters of 'choice' within divine providence, determining certain outcomes and possibilities, but all still within his all-encompassing government and allowances. A tyrannical monster, sadistic dictator or 'eternal punisher' He is not.


pj

 

[Timotheos]

~*~*~


Hello all,

I see this thread is still going, and going, and going

My former contributions in the very thread hold here.

Remember,....God is Love, and is wholly just and merciful, being all wise and gracious as far as the eternal destiny of souls are concerned, governing the factors and mechanisms which determine such by universal laws and principles.

Free will liberties are allowed within certain parameters of 'choice' within divine providence, determining certain outcomes and possibilities, but all still within his all-encompassing government and allowances. A tyrannical monster, sadistic dictator or 'eternal punisher' He is not.


pj

The threads continue, because those who reject the truth that the wages of sin is death are very stubborn. There is no evidence from the Bible that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell, but they insist on it anyway.

This thread could be ended by the other side in one second. Simply post the verse that says "The unsaved will go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment forever". In the meantime, I will believe the Bible which says that all who believe in Him will have eternal life and whoever doesn't believe in Him will perish.

 

[Rightglory]

I just read the 5th Council's decree and I find nothing in it condemning Conditional Immortality (the doctrine you like to call Annihilationism).
I get the distinct feeling that people will say anything to discredit a hated doctrine (Conditional Immortality) with actually knowing if what they say is true or not.
(I think you may be confusing Conditional Immortality with Universalism, a lot of people get to two doctrines mixed up.)

It really makes no difference. Conditional Immortality is not any more correct than annihilationalism.
Secondly, you were not speaking about Conditional Immorality as it turns out anyway. I had never heard of the term before so I looked it up.
Turns out it is a doctrine first adopted by Luther at the time of the Reformation. Apparently they do not hold that view presently, but several other Protestant groups do, such as the Christadelphians, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, and Jehovah Witnesses, some of the better known denominations.
The underlying false premise is that souls were created naturally immortal which is not scriptural either.

Which still makes it a false teaching since it was not believed from the beginning.

 

[Timotheos]

It really makes no difference. Conditional Immortality is not any more correct than annihilationalism.
Secondly, you were not speaking about Conditional Immorality as it turns out anyway. I had never heard of the term before so I looked it up.
Turns out it is a doctrine first adopted by Luther at the time of the Reformation. Apparently they do not hold that view presently, but several other Protestant groups do, such as the Christadelphians, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, and Jehovah Witnesses, some of the better known denominations.
The underlying false premise is that souls were created naturally immortal which is not scriptural either.

Which still makes it a false teaching since it was not believed from the beginning.

You are wrong. The doctrine of Conditional Immortality does not teach that souls were created naturally immortal. The Doctrine of Conditional Immortality is that immortality can only be obtained if certain conditions are met, (Conditional Immortality, get it?).
According to the Bible, the Condition is belief in the Lord, Jesus Christ. All who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. Sound familiar? It should, it is from John 3:16.

Did you know that the playbook of listing hated groups that also believe in a doctrine doesn't convince anyone? Mormons, Muslims, The Spanish Inquisition and Adolf Hitler all believed in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. They are all wrong, so does that automatically make ECTism false? It doesn't matter which groups believe in Conditional Immortality, since the Bible supports it, it is true.

 

[Timotheos]

Which still makes it a false teaching since it was not believed from the beginning.

What beginning? Paul believed in Conditional Immortality.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

It wasn't called "Conditional Immortality" or "Annihilationism" then, it was simply called "The Gospel".

 

[resurrected]

The threads continue, because those who reject the truth that the wages of sin is death are very stubborn.

:think:

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[Rightglory]

You are wrong. The doctrine of Conditional Immortality does not teach that souls were created naturally immortal. The Doctrine of Conditional Immortality is that immortality can only be obtained if certain conditions are met, (Conditional Immortality, get it?).
According to the Bible, the Condition is belief in the Lord, Jesus Christ. All who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. Sound familiar? It should, it is from John 3:16.

Did you know that the playbook of listing hated groups that also believe in a doctrine doesn't convince anyone? Mormons, Muslims, The Spanish Inquisition and Adolf Hitler all believed in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. They are all wrong, so does that automatically make ECTism false? It doesn't matter which groups believe in Conditional Immortality, since the Bible supports it, it is true.

Adam was created to attain to immortality. Man was not created either immortal or mortal.

Because man failed in his vocation, Christ was Incarnated and it is He that gives immortality to the world. That is what II Cor 5:18-19 is stating. It is again stated in Rom 3:23-25. It is through His Resurrection that He granted eternal existence, LIFE to the world. Which is why in I Cor 15:53, it says all the dead will be raised, and all the dead will be given immortality and incorruptibility. That immortality, His resurrection ends all death, the physical kind. The one of Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.

What it does not end is spiritual separation also known as death. It is also known as the Second Death. It is NOT a physical death, never has been.

Your adage that the Bible supports it doesn't really help you. The bible supports every single false teaching that has ever existed. Do you really think that the Mormons (Joseph Smith) didn't use scripture, or the Davidians, or even Islam used scripture.

The question that should be asked is what has scripture always meant from the beginning. Not what man has developed from scripture over the years, especially in the last 500 under the agis of sola scriptura. Man can make scripture say anything he wants it to say and be able to prove it. Sounds just like you.

 

[resurrected]

why bother?

 

[Rightglory]

What beginning? Paul believed in Conditional Immortality.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

It wasn't called "Conditional Immortality" or "Annihilationism" then, it was simply called "The Gospel".

Nice pick for proof texting, but Paul clearly affirms that Christ was Incarnated and gave life, a physical eternal existence to all of God's creation but particularly man, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, I Cor 15:53. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Heb 2:14.
Faith does not grant immortality, only Christ by His Resurrection.

That hell is eternal is also cited is the following texts (I can cite texts as well)
Matthew 25:45-46
“Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:43-44
“And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.]

Matthew 3:12
“And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Revelation 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

Revelation 4:9
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever…

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

However, it matters not how many texts one uses. Anyone can throw texts around as is quite evident of sola scripturist over the last 500 years. In fact, every false teacher is quite skilled in proof texting.
I would imagine that you have redefined these texts just as Universalist have to support their supposition.

It still comes down to what has scripture always meant from the beginning. Not what man can devise and construct.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It still comes down to what has scripture always meant from the beginning. Not what man can devise and construct.

Yes, the wages of sin is death, not life.

The soul that sins shall die, not live.

He that believeth in him shall not perish, not live.

You need to check out the forever and ever in the Bible, and it is the fire which not quenched, the second death is a death not a life of immortality.

You have to twist most every truth in the Bible to arrive at your beliefs, but then you follow the words of men.

another verse which sinks your no future mill. ---

The beast and false prophet are in hell from your first resurrection conversion.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The truth is that the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for the entire time of the thousand years. which you say is now.

So does AMR , poor man.





LA

 

[Rightglory]

Yes, the wages of sin is death, not life.

The soul that sins shall die, not live.

He that believeth in him shall not perish, not live.

You need to check out the forever and ever in the Bible, and it is the fire which not quenched, the second death is a death not a life of immortality.

You have to twist most every truth in the Bible to arrive at your beliefs, but then you follow the words of men.

another verse which sinks your no future mill. ---

The beast and false prophet are in hell from your first resurrection conversion.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The truth is that the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for the entire time of the thousand years. which you say is now.

So does AMR , poor man.
LA

So, once again, some assertions, but no evidence. You make claims that only can be confirmed by man made theories. And what does AMR have that you don't have? He is a man, a current living person, who has never been taught the Gospel and does the same thing as any other sola scripturist, devise or develop a view by their own intellect with the same result.
And of course you and AMR are not men, I presume?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So, once again, some assertions, but no evidence. You make claims that only can be confirmed by man made theories. And what does AMR have that you don't have? He is a man, a current living person, who has never been taught the Gospel and does the same thing as any other sola scripturist, devise or develop a view by their own intellect with the same result.
And of course you and AMR are not men, I presume?

We give scripture.

When you disagree with scripture you parrot the same thing back, which is just plain dishonest.

LA

 

[Timotheos]

:think:
Who Posted?
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Angel4Truth 102
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Yes, I proclaim the truth of the Bible.
I work hard at it, it looks like I have more posts in my thread than anyone else. If you would read what I post, and read the Bible, then you would also believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says and not eternal torture in hell.

Would you think I would have fewer posts than those I am refuting?
godrulz posts, and I give a refute which is ignored. 370 times.
Aimiel posts, and I give a refute which is ignored. 277 times.
GT posts, and I give a refute which is ignored. 237 times.
I am patient, and patiently explain scripture to those who deny it. I am always ready to explain to anyone who asks me for a reason for the hope of eternal life that I have. And I do my best to do it with gentleness and respect, although sometimes people's insults get me down. I can't tell you how many times I've been told to go to hell and enjoy burning alive, how many times I've been called a heretic, or how many times you have called me a retard. But I continue to proclaim God's justice and grace in spite of the opposition. I'm proud to be able to serve the Lord. He takes the insults of those who insult me.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life. John 3:16b

The Bible is undeniable, the thread continues because those who believe in eternal torment refuse to accept the truth of scripture. Why don't you give up and believe God's Word?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, the wages of sin is death, not life.

The soul that sins shall die, not live.

He that believeth in him shall not perish, (the opposite of living)

You need to check out the forever and ever in the Bible, and it is the fire which not quenched, the second death is a death not a life of immortality.

You have to twist most every truth in the Bible to arrive at your beliefs, but then you follow the words of men.

another verse which sinks your no future mill. ---

The beast and false prophet are in hell from your first resurrection conversion.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The truth is that the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for the entire time of the thousand years. which you say is now.


LA

I will concede that there is a time in which some men are in the burning flame before being destroyed.

This can only occur during the thousand years.

Baxter wrote a book about hell because of her visions of it, which she preached about throughout the world and I once thought she was completely mixed up but then she believed in ECT and placed her vision into the second death like most.

However there are two other places in scripture showing where her vision can apply more correctly, so that it is entirely possible that some are repeating what they believe and is true, but out of context.

LA