Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Timotheos,

I fully believe what He says. God is not in the business of destroying His creation, surely, not creatures that bear His Image. Why would He need to destroy them. I Cor 15:53 says that He will raise all the dead to immortality and incorruptibility. Why would He even raise them just to destroy them?

Because they have not repented of their sins, and the wages of sin is death.

If you think I an still incorrect, find some evidence that the Church has ever held the belief that God will destroy those in hell?

Evidence? Do you mean like some Church Leader who says that the lost will be destroyed in Hell? Jesus Christ is the Leader of the Church and He said in Matthew 10:28 that the body and soul would be destroyed in Hell. Is the word of Jesus Christ enough for you, or did you need the word of some Roman Catholic bishop?

So, which one is correct? You pick "destroy" and nothing in scripture supports it. See above comments.

Nothing in Scripture supports the destruction of the lost? Are you serious???

I've already mentioned Matthew 10:28 "be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell", see also 2 Thess 1:9, "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction", Matthew 3:12 the chaff is consumed by fire, 1 Corinthians 13:7 "God will destroy him", Hebrews 10:27, the fire consumes His adversaries,
Hebrews 10:39 we are not those who shrink back to destruction,
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy,
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

I could go on and on and on.

In other words, there is really no difference between a believer and an unbeliever with your definition.

This is interesting. You claim that those who receive eternal life from Jesus Christ and inherit immortality are no different from those who reject Jesus Christ, do not receive eternal life and are destroyed. You are wrong. Believer live forever and unbelievers perish and remain dead forever and do not have eternal life. Your view is not supported by scripture.

I have never read anyone that believes as you do. However, if you think it is the meaning of those words in contradiction to other statements, give the evidence that it has always been believed as you are stating it.

That's too bad. Once you honestly investigate it, you will find it to be true. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. That is what I believe, and it contradicts the false view that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell.

First, eternal life as used in scripture has the unstated meaning of being IN Christ. That was the whole purpose of God creating man and Christ redeeming man, to have union with Him. But unbelievers also have eternal life, an eternal physical existence.

This is incorrect, the Bible never ever says that unbelievers have eternal life. The Bible specifically says that they do not have eternal life. See 1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

All the dead will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. God does not annihilate His most prized creatures, those that bear His Image.

Your opinion here is not supported by scripture, Scripture contradicts your opinion, as I have shown. Those who will perish are not raised to immortality, Immortality is a gift from God only to those who put their faith in Him. "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Those who believe in Jesus Christ will have eternal life.
Those who reject Jesus Christ will not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

 

[Timotheos]

And of course, you want me to take your word for it. That's kind of hard to. Start by quoting to me where in the only Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God that it predicted the arrival of Jesus.

Ezekiel was part of the Scriptures Jesus used.

Ezekiel wrote that the soul who sinned shall die.

It is only your opinion that Jesus Christ rejected the words of Ezekiel, you want me to take your word for that?

I could go to many other Old Testament passages, but I can tell that it would be a waste of my time, your mind is made up that you will reject this message.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

 

[Rightglory]

Timotheos,

I fully believe what He says. God is not in the business of destroying His creation, surely, not creatures that bear His Image. Why would He need to destroy them. I Cor 15:53 says that He will raise all the dead to immortality and incorruptibility. Why would He even raise them just to destroy them?

Your response.....
Because they have not repented of their sins, and the wages of sin is death.

which is actually a contradiction to my question. If the wages of sin is death(annihilation) then there would be no purpose to raise them, they are already dead, dust, permanently. Why would it be necessary that they need to suffer death twice?

Evidence? Do you mean like some Church Leader who says that the lost will be destroyed in Hell? Jesus Christ is the Leader of the Church and He said in Matthew 10:28 that the body and soul would be destroyed in Hell. Is the word of Jesus Christ enough for you, or did you need the word of some Roman Catholic bishop?

First, I'm not Catholic and the Catholic Church did not officially begin until the 11th century.

However, Yes, it is very important to understand what individuals believed in the early Church. They were taught the Gospel. Something which you were not. So, your opinion becomes quite meaningless.

But, hey look around you. Scripture has been used as the sole source of faith for 500 years, and no one has yet gotten a unified gospel. Why would you think that your opinion is so much better than any other sola scripturist?

Nothing in Scripture supports the destruction of the lost? Are you serious???

so then you quote some texts that use the word destruction, some use perdition, some use destroy. Yet you have a contradiction in that man, as a human being was created to be eternal. Scripture also states that all men will be raised to life immortal and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:53.

Nothing states directly that man, those that are unbelievers will be annihilated. It would also be quite absurd of God to punish them and then annihilate them. As I asked before, why would God even raise them from death, which was an annihilation, just to pronounce another death sentence upon them. Your view makes no logical sense which is why it contradicts scripture.

In light of the fact that the perfect man means body, soul united with Christ, then those that do not have Christ would be considered destroyed as to being perfected. They will perish in the since they will never reach perfection which was the true purpose of God creating man.

We also have the issue of anthropomorphisms in scripture. How can we describe God's attitudes being unapproachable and unknowing. Using these words helps us mortals and finite beings in understanding differences.

That's too bad. Once you honestly investigate it, you will find it to be true. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. That is what I believe, and it contradicts the false view that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell.

OK, I did investigate. What I found is that the Church NEVER has held the view which I knew. A few Church Fathers seemed to have implied it, but never stated it. It was not absent from views of other religions throughout history. But it was not until the 1800's in the US that the view became better known, and has had some growth among some churches as Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians are some of the better known. But in every single case it was a development of some man who by his best intellectual efforts thought scripture might teach such a view. All it really means is that man has yet developed another imposed view upon scripture. A view that has never been the meaning of scripture from the beginning.

This is incorrect, the Bible never ever says that unbelievers have eternal life. The Bible specifically says that they do not have eternal life. See 1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Christ reconciled the world back to God. Christ gave the world, God's entire creation an eternal existence again. It would be quite unbelievable that God would then turn around, at such a great price, simply destroy,(annihilate) most of His creatures that bear His Image. I John 5:11-12 is not addressing eternal existence. It is addressing the personal relationship a believer has vs that of an unbeliever.
However, John 6:39, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, I Cor 15:53, all speak of and eternal existence.

Your opinion here is not supported by scripture, Scripture contradicts your opinion, as I have shown. Those who will perish are not raised to immortality, Immortality is a gift from God only to those who put their faith in Him. "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Those who believe in Jesus Christ will have eternal life.
Those who reject Jesus Christ will not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

Not my opinion, but 2000 years of unchanging scriptural meaning from the beginning. However, since it does not align with scripture, your view is purely a man's opinion.
All false views which man developes usually takes a single verse, proclaims a doctrinal supposition, then seeks to find a few more supporting texts that will fit his own definition and supposedly substantiate a positive conclusion. However, as with all other false teachings, they ignore the rest of scripture that is some cases explicitly deny the view as is this case. It is also based on an incorrect understanding of hell. This fact is true of some who don't even hold to the annihilation theory.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

All false views which man developes usually takes a single verse, proclaims a doctrinal supposition, then seeks to find a few more supporting texts that will fit his own definition and supposedly substantiate a positive conclusion. However, as with all other false teachings, they ignore the rest of scripture that is some cases explicitly deny the view as is this case. It is also based on an incorrect understanding of hell. This fact is true of some who don't even hold to the annihilation theory.

You make the same errors with 1 cor 15:53.

The verses do not say all men will be made immortal.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One must be in Christ to be made alive.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This death is NOT the physical death, but is speaking of the lake of fire, the second death, the opposite of eternal life.

LA

 

[Arthur Brain]

One needs to understand that God created man in order to have an eternal union and communion with man. The perfect man is one who has body and soul, but is unified with Christ, is sharing in His Divine nature. When man rejects this union, God is NOT going to annihilate him, but will accept man's decision of not having a spiritual relationship with God. That is perishing because that man will never be complete. He will never be the perfect human being. God is not in the business of destroying His creatures, He will continue to love them and that man has chosen to not be in union with Him will suffer the eternal consequences of that choice.

What doesn't add up with your position is why a loving God, who apparently still loves those who haven't believed, would leave them in a perpetual state of suffering with no chance of change or the ability to get out of it. That isn't love. Love would punish perhaps, but for the overall well being of a person, with purpose and with benefit, none of which is the case with your own description. I should add that I don't go along with annihilation either.

 

[Timotheos]

which is actually a contradiction to my question. If the wages of sin is death(annihilation) then there would be no purpose to raise them, they are already dead, dust, permanently. Why would it be necessary that they need to suffer death twice?

There is no contradiction. They are raised from death in order to stand in front of Christ for judgment, and they go to their second death as a result of that judgment. Who are you to question what the Bible says that God will do?

 

[Rightglory]

You make the same errors with 1 cor 15:53.

The verses do not say all men will be made immortal.

My Bible states that ALL men shall be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. That leaves no room for exceptions.
The entire chapter is an Incarnational chapter which speaks exclusively regarding the resurrection of all men due to the fact that Christ arose from the dead with our human nature. John 6:39 confirms it as well.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One must be in Christ to be made alive.

Not quite as your stating it, but all men are in Christ. Christ assumed our fallen mortal nature, He became us as a human being with our natures. It is this nature that is raised to life. This is an equation.
Are you prepared to posit that not all men died in Adam? Or that most men are not actually human as Adam was?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, both are representing or explaining the spiritual life or death, our having a relationship with Christ or lack thereof. It is NOT addressing our physical state of existence.

This death is NOT the physical death, but is speaking of the lake of fire, the second death, the opposite of eternal life.

Correct, as I stated just above, it is a spiritual death, loss of a relationship, just as "eternal life" usually references our spiritual relationship with Christ. The context must be used to determiine if it is referring to a physical eternal existence, or our eternal relationship with Christ.

 

[Rightglory]

What doesn't add up with your position is why a loving God, who apparently still loves those who haven't believed, would leave them in a perpetual state of suffering with no chance of change or the ability to get out of it. That isn't love. Love would punish perhaps, but for the overall well being of a person, with purpose and with benefit, none of which is the case with your own description. I should add that I don't go along with annihilation either.

Again a misunderstanding of God's justice. God permitted man to determine his eternal state. Man was given the freedom to choose between life or death.

God's love never deminishes. God's love for those in hell is what becomes the fire of hell. This love is perceived by those in hell to be fire. They are unable to return the love that God is giving to them. That was their choice, it has no effect upon God. It does nothing to lessen either His love or Justice.

Man seems to constantly look for some kind of reprieve to his sordid life in the here and now. He wants to live as the devil, then expect God to be give him a second chance of some kind, or not be to harsh with him. One reaps what one sows.

 

[Rightglory]

There is no contradiction. They are raised from death in order to stand in front of Christ for judgment, and they go to their second death as a result of that judgment. Who are you to question what the Bible says that God will do?

But why raise them, then sentence them to death, which is the same state they were in before they were raised. Assuming a change in Christ's Incarnation, that all men will be raised because He raised our human natures to life. It is why your theory does not fit scripture.
It denies God's purpose in creating man, and Christ redeeming mankind.
Man has a choice, eternal life or eternal death, the spiritual state.
God's purpose was not to destroy his creation, especially the creature that bears His Image.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Again a misunderstanding of God's justice. God permitted man to determine his eternal state. Man was given the freedom to choose between life or death.

So now it's justice as opposed to love? Love wouldn't throw people into a tiny speck of existence in relation to eternal consequence whereby those who failed to 'make the mark' would suffer throughout it by design. Your argument is ludicrous. Do you think that people would consciously "choose" an eternity of such if they knew that unbelief would be the cause?

God's love never deminishes. God's love for those in hell is what becomes the fire of hell. This love is perceived by those in hell to be fire. They are unable to return the love that God is giving to them. That was their choice, it has no effect upon God. It does nothing to lessen either His love or Justice.

How exactly was it their "choice"? If God knew that His love was going to have such an awful effect on those that through His own design - would be unable to experience any other way - then how in the name of sanity could that still be construed as love? The bible itself declares that love does no harm right? You're better just going for the 'justice' angle as your argument regarding love is just plain ridiculous.

Man seems to constantly look for some kind of reprieve to his sordid life in the here and now. He wants to live as the devil, then expect God to be give him a second chance of some kind, or not be to harsh with him. One reaps what one sows.

This is just lame. Not everybody in this existence lives like a hedonist without caring a whit. Some people are born into abject poverty and the direst of circumstances. Your argument would make a tad more sense if all people had a 'devil may care' attitude, which is blatantly not the case.

 

[Rightglory]

So now it's justice as opposed to love? Love wouldn't throw people into a tiny speck of existence in relation to eternal consequence whereby those who failed to 'make the mark' would suffer throughout it by design. Your argument is ludicrous. Do you think that people would consciously "choose" an eternity of such if they knew that unbelief would be the cause?

God created man with an innate sense of connecting with God. Man must make an active choice NOT to acknowledge God relative to the grace they were given.

How exactly was it their "choice"? If God knew that His love was going to have such an awful effect on those that through His own design - would be unable to experience any other way - then how in the name of sanity could that still be construed as love? The bible itself declares that love does no harm right? You're better just going for the 'justice' angle as your argument regarding love is just plain ridiculous.

Again, you blame God. It is man that is doing the choosing, not God. God set the parameters, God through His revelation has guided man. God is not the problem, but man. Man is being held accountable for his choice of whether he wants to be united or not. It is either life or death. What is so hard to comprehend?
Your perspective is not directed in the right place. Where is God's love doing harm. The believer perceives it as blessedness, the unbeliever as fire. God is not the recipient of His love, He gives it the same to all, but man does not accept it as the same.

This is just lame. Not everybody in this existence lives like a hedonist without caring a whit. Some people are born into abject poverty and the direst of circumstances. Your argument would make a tad more sense if all people had a 'devil may care' attitude, which is blatantly not the case.

I have no idea how you arrive at such a view. You somehow seem to want to put all the onus on God when it is man that is the problem here.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My Bible states that ALL men shall be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. That leaves no room for exceptions.
The entire chapter is an Incarnational chapter which speaks exclusively regarding the resurrection of all men due to the fact that Christ arose from the dead with our human nature. John 6:39 confirms it as well.

Not quite as your stating it, but all men are in Christ. Christ assumed our fallen mortal nature, He became us as a human being with our natures. It is this nature that is raised to life. This is an equation.
Are you prepared to posit that not all men died in Adam? Or that most men are not actually human as Adam was?


Yes, both are representing or explaining the spiritual life or death, our having a relationship with Christ or lack thereof. It is NOT addressing our physical state of existence.

Correct, as I stated just above, it is a spiritual death, loss of a relationship, just as "eternal life" usually references our spiritual relationship with Christ. The context must be used to determiine if it is referring to a physical eternal existence, or our eternal relationship with Christ.

Ridiculous rubbish doctrine, full of lies.

LA

 

[Arthur Brain]

God created man with an innate sense of connecting with God. Man must make an active choice NOT to acknowledge God relative to the grace they were given.

Just how does that work out exactly? Just what are these 'levels' of grace that are being dispensed? Do babies who die in infancy have this "choice"? Teenagers? The parents of those who are bereaved? Do you think at all in depth about any of this?

Again, you blame God. It is man that is doing the choosing, not God. God set the parameters, God through His revelation has guided man. God is not the problem, but man. Man is being held accountable for his choice of whether he wants to be united or not. It is either life or death. What is so hard to comprehend?

You've not answered me at all. How is man consciously "choosing" an eternal fate as you describe if he knows full well just what that choice entails and without any doubt? If you saw an item on the news whereby a man had refused help to be rescued from a burning building would you say he chose his fate if he burned or suffocated to death or would you surmise he was not exactly compos mentis? Do you suppose that everyone who doesn't believe, has a differing belief or faith is doing so in full and conscious knowledge of what awaits if they don't 'get on the right path'?

Your perspective is not directed in the right place. Where is God's love doing harm. The believer perceives it as blessedness, the unbeliever as fire. God is not the recipient of His love, He gives it the same to all, but man does not accept it as the same.

Eh? If it's keeping people "alive" in a state of conscious suffering with no room for healing or positive benefit then how is that not doing harm? These people are suffering with no chance of change in your view. You might as well say that a supposedly loving parent is dispensing love to a child by locking them up in a basement for the rest of their life for failing a maths exam.

I have no idea how you arrive at such a view. You somehow seem to want to put all the onus on God when it is man that is the problem here.

I've no idea how you arrive at your own bizarre conclusions in turn.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You make the same errors with 1 cor 15:53.

The verses do not say all men will be made immortal.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One must be in Christ to be made alive.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This death is NOT the physical death, but is speaking of the lake of fire, the second death, the opposite of eternal life.

LA

Well, I'm not sure how you can construe the Corinthians verse without reading 'all' into it. Everyone dies on an earthly level and it doesn't say 'some' or 'few' or 'many' shall be made alive which would make more sense from an annihilation perspective. Death itself is "cast" into the lake of fire which shouts metaphor galore and is the last "enemy" to be destroyed. I don't go with eternal torment or whatnot of any description but veer towards something else altogether. What if God's plan was to create a world and keep hold and restore all of it? Much of the early church held similar...

 

[Rightglory]

Ridiculous rubbish doctrine, full of lies.

LA

That is what all false teachers eventually state when their interpretation is not accepted. They have no evidence against the Truth of the Gospel. The ONLY way to retain their particular interpretation is to either minimize the Truth, ignore the Truth, or demonize it. In any case it does not change the Truth. The Truth has been preserved unchanged for 2000 years and will remain unchanged until Christ comes again.

 

[Rightglory]

Just how does that work out exactly? Just what are these 'levels' of grace that are being dispensed? Do babies who die in infancy have this "choice"? Teenagers? The parents of those who are bereaved? Do you think at all in depth about any of this?

Read Rom 1:18-19. All men were created with a conscience and placed into a creation that exudes the power and wisdom of God. Paul says that man must actually reject this given knowledge to deny God. Then we have the Oracles for Israel. They not only had creation, conscience but the Oracles of what we know as the OT, God working with man directly in this world through His people Israel.

Then finally, we have Christ in the flesh, Incarnate, and His revelation to the Apostles for his last age. Paul says in Hebrews that that God spoke at various times in various ways through the Prophets.

We, the beneficiaries of all the forms of revelation will be held accountable to a much higher standard than any of the previous.

You've not answered me at all. How is man consciously "choosing" an eternal fate as you describe if he knows full well just what that choice entails and without any doubt? If you saw an item on the news whereby a man had refused help to be rescued from a burning building would you say he chose his fate if he burned or suffocated to death or would you surmise he was not exactly compos mentis? Do you suppose that everyone who doesn't believe, has a differing belief or faith is doing so in full and conscious knowledge of what awaits if they don't 'get on the right path'?

Why do you deny scripture. God has created man to have every opportunity, all have the ability and capability to know and acknowledge God. God directly calls all men to repentance via the Holy Spirit. God is making sure that no man will have an excuse that he was not able, or capable of knowing God.
Yes, man will suffer the consequences of his rebellion against God. Man actively chooses to reject or accept. That is why Christ can be just in His judgments. God is NOT being arbitrary, nor is man benign.

Eh? If it's keeping people "alive" in a state of conscious suffering with no room for healing or positive benefit then how is that not doing harm? These people are suffering with no chance of change in your view. You might as well say that a supposedly loving parent is dispensing love to a child by locking them up in a basement for the rest of their life for failing a maths exam.

Man just cannot accept that he will be held accountable. They look at every angle to blame God, to say God is unfair, or not just, or not loving. God loves everyone. It is up to man to receive it as he desires. Nothing complex about that.

I've no idea how you arrive at your own bizarre conclusions in turn.

I don't arrive at them. It is a matter of accepting how scripture has always been believed and understood from the beginning. The Gospel was given ONCE, completely in the beginning. Jude 3. The unchanging Gospel is the historical witness to the power and promise of the Holy Spirit to preserve both the Gospel and the Body to which it was entrusted.

Man has developed a lot of theories from scripture. Many ways to be saved depending on the person trying to interpret a text. Yet, scripture has had ONLY one meaning f or 2000 years. Man has always tried to impose his own ideas upon scripture, but history also shows that no man was successful. The Gospel of Christ has gone forth, unchanged for 2000 years.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Read Rom 1:18-19. All men were created with a conscience and placed into a creation that exudes the power and wisdom of God. Paul says that man must actually reject this given knowledge to deny God. Then we have the Oracles for Israel. They not only had creation, conscience but the Oracles of what we know as the OT, God working with man directly in this world through His people Israel.

Then finally, we have Christ in the flesh, Incarnate, and His revelation to the Apostles for his last age. Paul says in Hebrews that that God spoke at various times in various ways through the Prophets.

We, the beneficiaries of all the forms of revelation will be held accountable to a much higher standard than any of the previous.

So, man has to consciously deny this knowledge, knowing full well and without any doubt whatsoever that in doing so he will end up in the eternal state of suffering you speak of? Is that an accurate summation of your view?

I notice you gave no answer as towards the very young who die btw.

Why do you deny scripture. God has created man to have every opportunity, all have the ability and capability to know and acknowledge God. God directly calls all men to repentance via the Holy Spirit. God is making sure that no man will have an excuse that he was not able, or capable of knowing God.
Yes, man will suffer the consequences of his rebellion against God. Man actively chooses to reject or accept. That is why Christ can be just in His judgments. God is NOT being arbitrary, nor is man benign.

Why do you think opposition to your own stance amounts to denying scripture? I think you're incredibly simplistic in what amounts to a black and white world of your own construction and anything that supports that. If your view made any sense then most if not all would end up in "Heaven", yet you'll blindly insist that man "chooses" to 'burn to death' for the most part instead. You may as well give yourself the credit for avoiding the same fate that "love" has for those who didn't make the same. Yet somehow I get the feeling you'll still try and give it all to God despite your own input in your salvation from it? Or am I wrong?

Man just cannot accept that he will be held accountable. They look at every angle to blame God, to say God is unfair, or not just, or not loving. God loves everyone. It is up to man to receive it as he desires. Nothing complex about that.

Why would man have doubts or feel anything like that if the guidance given was more or at least sufficient to assuage any such thoughts? Has it ever occurred to you that it's doctrines like yours that turn people away? You speak as one who's essentially 'done the right thing' and ready to condemn your equally fallible neighbour who hasn't done the same as yourself as if you're 'outside' of "man" in general. There's nothing complex about seeing love as doing no harm but you can't seem to see that.

I don't arrive at them. It is a matter of accepting how scripture has always been believed and understood from the beginning. The Gospel was given ONCE, completely in the beginning. Jude 3. The unchanging Gospel is the historical witness to the power and promise of the Holy Spirit to preserve both the Gospel and the Body to which it was entrusted.

Man has developed a lot of theories from scripture. Many ways to be saved depending on the person trying to interpret a text. Yet, scripture has had ONLY one meaning f or 2000 years. Man has always tried to impose his own ideas upon scripture, but history also shows that no man was successful. The Gospel of Christ has gone forth, unchanged for 2000 years.

Nothing new with someone who thinks their interpretation is the "right" one either, which is what you're doing in turn even if you don't see the irony in light of that.

 

[Rightglory]

So, man has to consciously deny this knowledge, knowing full well and without any doubt whatsoever that in doing so he will end up in the eternal state of suffering you speak of? Is that an accurate summation of your view?

I notice you gave no answer as towards the very young who die btw.

so says scripture. God is merciful. He is the judge, not me. Why be concerned about something you either have no knowledge of, nor are the judge? We can only be assured of what scripture states.

Why do you think opposition to your own stance amounts to denying scripture? I think you're incredibly simplistic in what amounts to a black and white world of your own construction and anything that supports that. If your view made any sense then most if not all would end up in "Heaven", yet you'll blindly insist that man "chooses" to 'burn to death' for the most part instead. You may as well give yourself the credit for avoiding the same fate that "love" has for those who didn't make the same. Yet somehow I get the feeling you'll still try and give it all to God despite your own input in your salvation from it? Or am I wrong?

Your statements do not even reflect the reality around you. I must assume you are not in some back country, and if in the US you really have a false view of reality. I know a lot of people who know what scripture says, know the consequences of rejecting Christ, but still do reject Him. Maybe they are like you, and think that God is not cruel and won't send such a good person to hell, when it is not about God at all but man. Some blow it off as a myth, some like Marx, for example, thought it was a panacea for the common man. I think some people rationalize it, tries to minimize it, some just ignore it and don't want to speak about it. Why do you think man has developed so many ways to be saved. They don't like the Truth.

Why would man have doubts or feel anything like that if the guidance given was more or at least sufficient to assuage any such thoughts? Has it ever occurred to you that it's doctrines like yours that turn people away? You speak as one who's essentially 'done the right thing' and ready to condemn your equally fallible neighbour who hasn't done the same as yourself as if you're 'outside' of "man" in general. There's nothing complex about seeing love as doing no harm but you can't seem to see that.

its not even about me. It is what scripture states regarding man's responsibility to God. God created us for a purpose. We either fulfill the purpose or we don't.
He has a judgement. Very straightforward.

Nothing new with someone who thinks their interpretation is the "right" one either, which is what you're doing in turn even if you don't see the irony in light of that.

If the Gospel understanding has not changed from the beginning as the Apostles taught it to the early Church, my faith is such that I must believe it as the Truth. Would the Holy Spirit trick us? Would He lie to us?

If you don't believe it as Truth, that is also your choice. What revelation would you have that is different and could be the Truth?

It is quite evident that in the sola scriptura milieu man has created many different versions of how to be saved. Different theories, ideas, what Paul calls fables. Man prefers to develop a very benign, comfortable, fuzzy psychological idealogy of how he would like to be saved, is apparently overwhelming for a lot of people.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

That is what all false teachers eventually state when their interpretation is not accepted. They have no evidence against the Truth of the Gospel. The ONLY way to retain their particular interpretation is to either minimize the Truth, ignore the Truth, or demonize it. In any case it does not change the Truth. The Truth has been preserved unchanged for 2000 years and will remain unchanged until Christ comes again.

My Bible states that ALL men shall be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. That leaves no room for exceptions.

Junk rubbish evil.

LA

 

[Rightglory]

Junk rubbish evil.

LA

Translated, you have nothing to prove it incorrect.