Is Jesus coming soon?

ffreeloader

Well-known member
To call the ambassadors home before the outbreak of hostilities.

To call the ambassadors home before the outbreak of hostilities.

So what? At the time of the flood the gospel of the grace of God was completely unknown and remained so for a very long time.

Can God not do things God's way?
Huh? Where do you come up with "the outbreak of hostilities"? The outbreak of hostilities here on earth took place in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were it's first victims. The devil has been at war with us ever since. He's killed us by the billions and gotten us to kill each other by the billions.

Christ won the war on Calvary. The devil has been a defeated foe since then, but the final battles had/have yet to be fought. Paul and Silas sang songs of victory after being thrown in prison. Every one of the apostles suffered persecution and or death. Millions of Christians have been martyred whether it being tossed to the wild animals, burnt at the stake, tortured to death in the Inquisition, etc.... And you don't think hostilities have yet started? How can that be?

Of course God can, and will, do things His way. I just don't agree with you as to what "God's way" actually is. It seems to me you've shown a fair amount of ignorance on that subject when you say hostilities have yet to begin. I'd say hostilities have been going since before the Garden of Eden and the final acts will be God putting an end to hostilities, not beginning them.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I believe that's true to a certain extent, but the message from the closing of the door of the ark is that the chance to repent and turn around went away without the wicked even understanding that it happened. I don't see anything in scripture that says Noah knew exactly when it was going to happen. He entered the ark in accordance with what God told him to do, but even he didn't know when the door would be closed as it was impossible for him to close that door. That's the way it is for us too. We don't/won't know exactly when God's forbearance will come to an end. We can look around and the signs that things are happening but we won't know the exact day or hour.

I find it interesting that with all the discussion/arguments over theology I've seen here I've never seen a thread on the second coming of Christ. Is there really so little interest in it that nobody is really interested in the most profound Biblical subject we can speak about? It's the event that puts and end to sin, and I can't think of anything I look forward to more than that for all suffering, sickness, sorrow, etc... comes to an end when this event takes place.
I believe in a pre-trib Rapture of the church. It isn't the 2nd coming, because we will be called up to meet the Lord in the heavens. The Tribulation is filled with God's wrath, Israel is the centerpiece and they will finally turn to the Lord during that time of Wrath.

I've believed in the Pre-Trib Rapture for years, but it's been only recently that I have developed this "urge" to share the Gospel because the time is short.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
From kgov.com:


* The Bible shows the Timing of Christ's Return has Changed: For most folks, before reading this list we recommend praying, "Lord, if Your Word clearly teaches something that I will tend to reject because it conflicts with some of my biases, please help me to be humble before You and willing to challenge my preexisting beliefs."
- God Views the End Times Calendar as Changeable: "I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time" Isa. 60:22
- Believers Can Change the Time of Christ's Return: Peter wrote that believers too should set about, "hastening the coming of the day of God" 2 Pet. 3:12
- Even the Length of the Tribulation will Change: Jesus said that, "those days will be shortened" Mat. 24:22
- Like God Shortening His Punishment of Israel: the Old Testament precedents for God shortening the coming Tribulation, include, "choose... seven years... Or... three months... Or... three days' plague..." And David said... "His mercies are great..." So the Lord heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel. 2 Sam. 24:12-17, 25
- For God Promised Mercy Regardless of Prophecy If...: "The instant I speak concerning a nation [Israel], to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it." Jer. 18:7-8 (see also a dozen more Category 1 verses like that one, including the next, about Nineveh)
- Again, Get This Down, God Promises Mercy Regardless of Prophecy If: "...forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown! [But then] they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." Jonah 3:10
- Before You Get Through Israel's Villages: "...I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Mat. 10:23 (yet this did not happen, because as warned, God changed His plan for Israel; Jer. 18:9-10; Rom. 11)
- Some of You Won't Die Until: "there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Mat. 16:28 (this didn't refer to the Transfiguration which occurred about a day later; see too Mark 9 and Luke 9; yet they all did die, because God changed His plan for Israel, and grafted in the Gentiles; Jer. 18:9-10; Rom. 11)
- John Might Not Die Before: "Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?'" John 21:23
- This Generation Won't Pass Until: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Mat. 24:34 (yet that generation did pass away, because God changed His plan for Israel and instead grafted in the Gentiles; Jer. 18:9-10; Rom. 11)
- Before Paul, Believers Sold their Homes: "all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need." Acts 4:34-35; 5:1-2 (this behavior, appropriate at the time, changed after Paul's Acts 9 conversion when God grafted in the Gentiles)
- Christ's Soon Return Permeated His Teachings: "Sell what you have and give alms" Luke 12:33; "And everyone who has left houses... or lands, for My name's sake..." Mat. 19:29. "...do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on" Luke 12:22. The "ravens... neither sow nor reap" yet "God feeds them" Luke 12:24. "He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff——no bag..." Mark 6:8. "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your moneybelts..." Mat. 10:9. "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and... come, follow Me" Luke 18:22. (yet He did not return soon, as He had warned that He may change His mind). And even that Jesus went about all Galilee preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" Mat. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; Mark 1:14-15 and Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel [of the kingdom]" Mark 1:15; Mat. 3:2; 4:17
- With Homes Sold, They Became Poor: Remember that "all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them... and they distributed to each as anyone had need." Acts 4:34-35; 5:1-2
- It Was the Converts of the Twelve Who Fell into Poverty: 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1-9:15; Gal. 2:10; Rom. 15:25–31; Acts 11:27–30; 24:17 for communism quickly fails; the sale of pesonal property was to be a short-term tactic to survive the Tribulation and enter the Kingdom; the Postponement led to their poverty.
- Paul's Converts Kept Their Homes and Provided Relief: (The "apostle to the Gentiles" was able to raise relief from his converts) 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1-9:15; Gal. 2:10; Rom. 15:25–31; Acts 11:27–30; 24:17 to support the believers in Judea who fell into poverty; they hadn't immediately become poor after selling their property, but after the delay in Christ's previously-expected soon return
- God Warned He may Not Give Israel their Kingdom as Prophesied: "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." Jer. 18:9-10 (see also Jer. 18:7-8; for God, unlike a juvenile judge, does not make empty threats)
- One Year Probation Followed Three-Year Earthly Ministry: "'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree [figuratively, Israel] and find none. Cut it down...' But he answered and said, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" Luke 13:7-9
- Daniel's Seventieth Week Suspended: The prophet Daniel's 490-year prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27) of 483 years between the command to rebuild Jerusalem (by Artaxerxes Neh. 2:1-8) until the execution of the Messiah, followed by the next seven years that were to be the Great Tribulation (Mat. 24:15; Mark 13:14); but Israel rejected their resurrected Messiah so as God had warned (Jer. 18:9-10) He changed what He had prophesied for them by postponing both the tribulation and the Kingdom it would usher in.
- After the Cross Ten Signs of the Tribulation Were Evident: See chapter 9 of kgov.com/the-plot for details; in the year beginning with Christ's death the signs of the Great Tribulation that occurred included the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, signs and wonders, earthquakes, believers beaten by councils, the laying on of hands to imprison, arrests leading to occasion for testimony, martyrdom, expectation of an abbreviated end times and of the soon appearance of signs in the sun, moon, and stars, irresistible wisdom displayed.
- Fulfillment of Prophetic Seven Feasts of Israel Suspended: God ceased the apparent fulfillment of the Feasts of Israel on their very calendar days, for Jesus died on the day the Jews killed the Passover lamb; He was in the tomb during Unleavened Bread; raised on Firstfruits; gave the Holy Spirit on Pentecost; and He "tabernacled" among us (John 1:14, with the Greek saying not "dwelt" but "tabernacled"), likely fulfilling that feast; but the remaining two feasts including Trumpets are yet awaiting fulfillment, as God postponed His prophetic plan for Israel.
- Jesus Hardly Spoke About the End Times Until Just Before the Cross: The apocalyptic Olivet Discourse happened when Jesus said to His disciples, "You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified." Mat. 26:1-2
- God the Son Didn't Know the Timing: and neither did God the Holy Spirit but only the Father, for it is in His purview to decide when Jesus shall return. Just Google: open theism verses, and see Category 15, which includes the following:

The Holy Spirit, third person of the Godhead, did not know something that the Father knew, namely, the planned day and hour of the Second Coming Mark 13:32 and of course that lack of knowledge did not negate His divinity for the quantitative attribute of omniscience is not like the absolute qualitative attributes; likewise, no man, no angel, nor even the Son knew, for "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only" of the persons of the Godhead, with even the Second Person not knowing the timing of the Second Coming which was in the purview of the Father alone Mat. 24:36.

- Israel's End Times Signs Not Relevant Today: When the Lord temporarily set aside Israel's Kingdom and their covenant of circumcision and grafted in the Body of Christ with its covenant of grace (this is not replacement theology), God's new sign, so to speak, of the end of the Body of Christ's time on earth is the "fullness of the Gentiles", whatever He means by that, be it a billion believers to populate heaven, or the Gospel preached worldwide, or holiness within the Body, etc.; so that, when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" then God will graft Israel back in again, "for God is able to graft them in again", and thereby resume the countdown on their end times calendar; Rom. 11:11-32.
- To Read More about the Changed Date of the Second Coming: Click to get a copy of Bob Enyart's life's work, The Plot: An Overview of the Bible is the Key to its Details and review the list of 33 Categories of more than 500 scriptures at opentheism.org/verses.



Links that were present on the page not found in the text above can be found at the link above.
I disagree with most of that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
For what reason do you think this "catching up" is to take place? What is it's reason for existing in God's plan of salvation? This obviously did not exist in any way shape or form when God destroyed the world with the flood. So why would it exist now?
Of course Noah and his family were caught up and saved from the flood.

The church (Christians) will also be caught up, because we are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You read Revelation and you'll see God's Wrath. The church will be taken.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
To call the ambassadors home before the outbreak of hostilities.

Ah, I love the way you put it. And Amen to that.
To call the ambassadors home before the outbreak of hostilities.

So what? At the time of the flood the gospel of the grace of God was completely unknown and remained so for a very long time.

Can God not do things God's way?

Yes, and Noah was not appointed to the wrath of the flood.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Huh? Where do you come up with "the outbreak of hostilities"? The outbreak of hostilities here on earth took place in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were it's first victims. The devil has been at war with us ever since. He's killed us by the billions and gotten us to kill each other by the billions.

Christ won the war on Calvary. The devil has been a defeated foe since then, but the final battles had/have yet to be fought. Paul and Silas sang songs of victory after being thrown in prison. Every one of the apostles suffered persecution and or death. Millions of Christians have been martyred whether it being tossed to the wild animals, burnt at the stake, tortured to death in the Inquisition, etc.... And you don't think hostilities have yet started? How can that be?

Of course God can, and will, do things His way. I just don't agree with you as to what "God's way" actually is. It seems to me you've shown a fair amount of ignorance on that subject when you say hostilities have yet to begin. I'd say hostilities have been going since before the Garden of Eden and the final acts will be God putting an end to hostilities, not beginning them.
Oh no, this will be a tribulation like none have even seen. The antichrist will make war on Israel and all those who have turned to Christ because of their witness. That's what this passage is about. Clearly Jewish which proves out in the book of Revelation.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Care to elaborate?
I would, and I will, but I can't just now. I'm old and tired and I've run out of gas. I'll look again, I promise.

Wait, I remember this really stuck out and I have some things to say about it, too.

This Generation Won't Pass Until: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Mat. 24:34 (yet that generation did pass away, because God changed His plan for Israel and instead grafted in the Gentiles; Jer. 18:9-10; Rom. 11)
 

JudgeRightly

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I would, and I will, but I can't just now. I'm old and tired and I've run out of gas. I'll look again, I promise.

No worries!

Wait, I remember this really stuck out and I have some things to say about it, too.

This Generation Won't Pass Until: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Mat. 24:34 (yet that generation did pass away, because God changed His plan for Israel and instead grafted in the Gentiles; Jer. 18:9-10; Rom. 11)

I await to hear your thoughts
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
No worries!



I await to hear your thoughts
Thank you for your patience. There is so much there, and I'm sure there is some good stuff, but for some reason Matthew 24 caught my attention. Mainly because it was before Jesus was crucified and he was talking about something way in the future. It's a prophecy of the Tribulation and the end days. I'm wondering how many more of those example might be the same thing. The generation that shall not pass is the generation that shall see "all these things".

Matt. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Noah was in an ark floating in the flood. He went through the flood but never drowned as God provided the means for Noah to build the ark.
I think you might be fishing. ;)

Are you thinking that the church will have to go through the tribulation, and be protected by God?
 

Leatherneck

Well-known member
I think you might be fishing. ;)

Are you thinking that the church will have to go through the tribulation, and be protected by God?
I believe it all works out for God’s glory however He decreed it to happen. Wether before or during tribulation it will be as He decreed it to be. I do not believe Noah’s flood works as a text to use for pretribulation rapture,because he went through the flood protected by God. He was not removed from the flood he was protected in the flood.
 

Tambora

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I believe it all works out for God’s glory however He decreed it to happen. Wether before or during tribulation it will be as He decreed it to be. I do not believe Noah’s flood works as a text to use for pretribulation rapture,because he went through the flood protected by God. He was not removed from the flood he was protected in the flood.
I believe as you do that Noah does not portray a rapture.
It is more akin to the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation, a remnant having some protection during the tribulation but not taken out of it.

I have sat on the fence for years about the pre-trib rapture.
And the more I dig into it systematically the more I lean toward the rapture being the time when all of Christ's body (which would be believers of all times) is raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye.
And that the wrath we do not have to endure is the lake of fire.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I believe it all works out for God’s glory however He decreed it to happen. Wether before or during tribulation it will be as He decreed it to be. I do not believe Noah’s flood works as a text to use for pretribulation rapture,because he went through the flood protected by God. He was not removed from the flood he was protected in the flood.
Wait. Was I comparing Noah to the Rapture? I didn't mean to.
I'd said Noah was not appointed to WRATH...just as the Church is not appointed to Wrath.

I was having a mental lapse, wasn't I/

I was comparing Matt. 24 to the Tribulation and then the 2nd Coming of Christ.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I believe as you do that Noah does not portray a rapture.
It is more akin to the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation, a remnant having some protection during the tribulation but not taken out of it.

Now don't hold that error of mine against me. I didn't mean to compare Noah to the rapture....my aside was that he was not appointed to wrath, just as the church is not appointed to wrath.
I have sat on the fence for years about the pre-trib rapture.
And the more I dig into it systematically the more I lean toward the rapture being the time when all of Christ's body (which would be believers of all times) is raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye.
And that the wrath we do not have to endure is the lake of fire.

Oh going deep, are you?

This is going to be fun.

(y)
 

Leatherneck

Well-known member
I believe as you do that Noah does not portray a rapture.
It is more akin to the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation, a remnant having some protection during the tribulation but not taken out of it.

I have sat on the fence for years about the pre-trib rapture.
And the more I dig into it systematically the more I lean toward the rapture being the time when all of Christ's body (which would be believers of all times) is raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye.
And that the wrath we do not have to endure is the lake of fire.
I am leaning ( but still studying) towards a mid trib rapture. First half of the 7 years is tribulation and the second half is great tribulation. I believe the first half is when mankind inflicts tribulation and the second half is when God’s judgments fall first person from God, but like I said I am still praying and studying.
 

Tambora

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Now don't hold that error of mine against me. I didn't mean to compare Noah to the rapture....my aside was that he was not appointed to wrath, just as the church is not appointed to wrath.


Oh going deep, are you?

This is going to be fun.

(y)
Hey, I'm all for exploring every inch of it from every angle.
Fun fun fun!
 
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