Is it true that after you have studied Torah you know you are not a prophet?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
TweetyBird
New member
Where are the "613" commandments that Jesus supposedly taught in the Gospels? Why can't you post verses showing where He taught them?
Jesus already told us that Heaven and earth would pass away because He fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law.
No, all is not fulfilled either - the law still declares men guilty before God, you initially claimed Jesus walked outside of the law, back that up with scripture please, show us the law and where He violated it, thanks.
No, YOU are the mistaken one, and you need to start reading your bible.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Galations 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Galations 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
The law is still in effect and doing what its designed to do, show what sin is, and to declare all men guilty and point to Christ for salvation.
TweetyBird
New member
The big one is that He was sacrificed for the sins of all mankind. That is prohibited in the Law of Moses Covenant. Jesus also changed the Law to something other than stated in the Mosaic Law. That is prohibited in the Mosaic Law Covenant. Jesus did not keep the Sabbath - He said He was sent to do the work of His Father even on the Sabbath. Do you think Jesus sacrificed for sins? That was a requirement in the Law of Moses Covenant.
Let me know when you can quote the relevant scriptures. Untill then, youve offered nothing. I want His opinion on it, not yours, you know like i've done with you.
TweetyBird
New member
No man can die for another man's sins:
Moses tried to atone for the sins of Israel. God said He would blot those who sinned out of His Book. [Ex 32:30-33]
Again, God stated that one cannot die for another person's sin:
Deut 24
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Jesus changed the Law in Matt 5.
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Matt 5
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 but I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 but I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Sin sacrifices were required in the Mosaic Law - Lev 7, Num 15, Lev 23 - just to name 3 - there are many more references. Sacrifices for sin was the main topic of the Mosaic Law - everything in that Covenant is based on the sacrificial system, which is why it does not pertain to Christ, but was required of Him, if you want Him to bow the knee to the Mosaic Law.
Jesus did not keep the Sabbath Day:
John 5
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Irrelevant. Jesus is God.
He clarified their misunderstanding of the law, ie their oral law, not the laws God gave.
Again Jesus did not violate the laws God gave but the oral law. You havent shown direct to where the law is stated, then broken (verse from the law, then where Christ broke it)
Jesus:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:17-20, ESV)
He could not be messiah or fulfill anything if he violated the law in any point. To transgress the law, is to sin, that is what sin is, a transgression of the law, so are you stating that Jesus sinned?
1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.
If He in any way transgressed the law, He would be with stain of sin, and unsuitable as sin atonement.
Exodus 12:5
'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.
1 Peter 2:22-24 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth…
Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!
You confuse your edicts (like the pharisees did) of the law - with what the law actually states.
TweetyBird
New member
How does that make Him keeping the Law, then, if He dies for the sin of all mankind, when the Law prohibits that?
Deut 12 states that no one can add or subtract from the Law. The people understood it perfectly and promised to obey every word of it. There was no misunderstanding of the Law. What Jesus taught there in Matt 5 contradicts the Mosaic Law.
You cannot pull the "oral law" card, because it never existed in the Law of Moses. All that God gave to Moses was written down. There is absolutely no oral law that is part of the Mosaic Law. The oral law was added by the Talmudic Rabbis.
He did violate the law when He died for the sins of mankind. All it takes is one thing to break all the Law. I have stated, unequivocally, that Jesus did not sin, could not sin, was not able to sin. He is God. God cannot sin.
How that prove Jesus kept the Law of Moses? Jesus was the Lamb Slain before the foundation of the world. He was anointed by God, and was born sinless.
Those verses state nothing about keeping the Law of Moses. In fact, you cannot use the Ex verse because that is about an actual literal lamb under the old covenant law. Jesus was not chosen and did not die based on the old covenant sacrificial laws.
The Pharisees added so much weight to the Law that they rendered it invalid. I quoted actual verses, word for word - which is exactly how God expected His Law to be carried out. You asked for the verses, I gave them. Now you are making excuses and adding all kinds of "oral law" to the Law yourself because you cannot prove that Jesus had to keep Torah to be the perfect sinless lamb. How little you think of Him - that He had to keep a carnal commandment given to idol worshiping Israel to keep them holy? Seriously? That really takes the cake.
You have quoted no law stating Christ could not die for sins, you quoted that God (which Christ is) would not judge a man for the sins of his father or a father for the sins of his son and that we die for our own sins that we have committed.
So again, are you claiming Christ sinned, since you falsely believe what you quoted from its context to be a law?
Lets look at it again:
Deut 24
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This is God telling men not to execute someone for what someone else did and that He wont hold responsible a father for the sins of his son nor a son for the sins of his father.
Christ laid down his own life, no one took it from Him.
John 10:17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
Which is what you just did.
False and you haven't shown otherwise. All youve shown is that you misunderstand what is stated.
Yes, i can, since what was violated was the pharisees oral law, not the law God gave concerning the sabbath, THEY added to what was considered "works" that are not listed in scripture, thats their "traditions" that Christ spoke of.
For example, Christ was charged with breaking the Sabbath because he spit in the dirt and made clay to heal the blind man, because in the ORAL law (made up from scribes and rabbis) that spitting in the dirt makes clay, and making clay is a work, so if you have to spit you have do so on a rock or be guilty of working on the sabbath, Christ mocked THEIR oral law, by making clay, do you think Christ needed clay to heal someone?
He did to mock their false laws. Laws designed to be heavy on the people, not laws God gave.
Again, you claim He sinned, show it, show the law itself, then where Christ broke it.
Very good, you are starting to learn, Christ never violated the laws of God, only those interpretations from the rabbis. Their ORAL law.
I also never said oral law was part of mosaic law, thats your addition.
You just contradicted yourself, either he transgressed the law, which means he sinned, or He didnt. My God is without sin like scriptures states, that Christ violated no law, like it also states and you dont agree with.
It says clearly, He knew NO sin and was blameless, and HE said the law will not be abolished till ALL has been done, its not finished yet.
Ive already cited where the nt even says the law is for the knowledge of sin, and where Jesus said the law is still in effect.
Like you are doing to the point that you accuse Christ of sin. No, you quoted out of context verses and have yet to show actual LAW and then actual scripture where THAT LAW was broken and how.
No, you gave large out of context passages, compared nothing to anything and then tried to "explain" in your own words why something is so, that isnt so.
Thanks for the conversation though, youve proven you dont know or understand scripture and you dont understand who it is you claim to worship since you charge Him with sin.
My God has no sin, NO guile is found in His mouth, He followed the law completely. Which makes Him eligible to be my Savior.
TweetyBird
New member
Correct, As a man, He sacrificed His life for all the sins of mankind. This contrary to the Mosacic Law.
Jesus did not deny that He broke the Sabbath, because He did, according to the Law of Moses.
I never once said that Jesus sinned. Not once, ever, never.
He contradicted the Law and taught something else, as well as sacrificing Himself. That does not make Him a sinner. He cannot sin, but He can change the Law, being God.
You brought up the oral law, not me.
Jesus is without sin. He does not have to keep the Law of Moses to be sinless. God did not keep the Mosaic Law - He did not give to Himself, but to the nation of Israel so they could be holy and set apart. Jesus is Holy and Set Apart - He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.
We agree, He knew no sin. He fulfilled all the Law, it's finished, done, completed, satisfied, nailed to the tree.
So Jesus needed to obey the law to know what sin is? HE WROTE IT TO BEGIN WITH ... LOL
I already showed you how Jesus disagreed with the Law and taught something different. I have never accused Jesus Christ of sin, not once, ever and no never. You are accusing me of some silly myth cooked up to make Jesus less than God. But I don't suppose you see that way.
Hopefully, you will read the OT to see how much of the Law of Moses God broke Himself. He even said His Name is Jealous. And He sent His angel of death to murder His own people and cursed them. You just do not get it - that Jesus is God and that He is above, superior to the Mosaic Law. That Law was ABOUT Him, NOT for Him.
The texts clearly state what God said. It is not hidden, it is not across the sea, it is not out of reach in heaven - it's written in His preserved words - either you believe Him or you don't.
There is absolutely zero Scripture that states Jesus had to obey Torah perfectly to be the Sacrificial Lamb. He was already approved by God before He was even born.
John 5
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
TweetyBird
New member
You are avoiding the question. Where in the NT are the verses giving instruction on all 613 commandments of the Mosaic Law Covenant?
I am actually not speaking of the NT. I think you mean Matthew through Revelation, but I do not call these books the NT or the New Testament.
Did you read Matthew 5:17-20 NASB?
Shalom.
Richard Tanner
New member
uhmmmm...no he did not teach against Torah. He taught against the misapplication of it for it is written, "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:40 ESV)
TweetyBird
New member
Show the verses in the NT that explain all 613 commandments and how the Gentiles and Israel is supposed to keep them.
TweetyBird
New member
He taught a new Law, new commandments.That is contrary to the Law found in the Mosaic Law Covenant.
I am not here to show you verses in the NT. Do you accept what Jesus taught? Shalom. Jacob.
No, He didnt. You havent read the law clearly.
New American Standard Bible
Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
From the law : Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Jesus said:
Matthew 22:37
Jesus declared, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mark 12:30
and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Adding the second part i forgot to add,
Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Both of what you claim are "new laws" come directly from the torah, in addition if you even read the context in the new testament, the pharisees are asking what the greatest commandment is. Jesus is quoting the Torah, the 2 verses i just gave and adding that all of the law and prophets hang on those 2 laws.
Please do now show the "new" laws that Jesus gave and where He invalidated the law, HE already gave.