PKevman
New member
Knight our posts were almost identical and came at the same time. That is scary brother. :ha:
Is elohiym an idiot?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Knight our posts were almost identical and came at the same time. That is scary brother. :ha:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nope, nothing new. The children of the Bondwoman have always persecuted the children of the Freewoman. Gal 4:29 KJV.
elohiym
Well-known member
Do you ever steal, Knight? Do you ever commit adultery? Do you ever murder? Answer.
To you those are examples of slipping up. It's like you must believe that the BTK serial killer just slipped up, not that he was an unconverted, sick, twisted pervert that was NEVER a Christian.
Did you ever realize that under the Mosaic law, the law you agree Jesus kept perfectly, that a bulk of the sins were not willful? Those sins were covered by a sacrifice. In contrast, willful sins like murder and adultery had NO sacrifice, EVER. There was only a death penalty. The distinction between certain crimes and their penalties should stick out to you like a sore thumb.
You will never stop committing involuntary acts that were considered sin under the Mosaic law. That is why the law was nailed to the cross, to get it out of your way. Now those acts are no longer a sin if you do them. Those sins were never about the condition of man's heart, but the condition of his flesh.
Murder is not an involuntary act, EVER. A person murders because they have an unconverted heart. Period. YOU don't have a license to murder anyone, Knight. Neither does an abortion doctor that thinks he's a Christian.
PKevman
New member
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you notice verses 12 and 13 in the above text, it is clear that the Apostle is showing there is a CHOICE that even we Chritians must make in our daily lives. A choice to either:
a. Let sin reign in our mortal bodies
b. Do not let sin reign in our mortal bodies.
Further there is a choice:
a. present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness
b. Not to present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. (I.e. living for YOU instead of living for God)
a. reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin
b. Not to reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin.
The very word RECKON indicates a choice, a mindset! What mindset will you have as a Christian who has been set free from the bondage of sin?
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you notice verses 12 and 13 in the above text, it is clear that the Apostle is showing there is a CHOICE that even we Chritians must make in our daily lives. A choice to either:
a. Let sin reign in our mortal bodies
b. Do not let sin reign in our mortal bodies.
Further there is a choice:
a. present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness
b. Not to present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. (I.e. living for YOU instead of living for God)
a. reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin
b. Not to reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin.
The very word RECKON indicates a choice, a mindset! What mindset will you have as a Christian who has been set free from the bondage of sin?
elohiym
Well-known member
Knight, on this very thread in two posts you implied strongly that you believed you had a license to sin. See posts #206 and #207.
Give me a break. It is you that are mocking grace, God and me. I preach salvation by grace through faith alone.
And you believe liberty is a license to sin. IF YOU DON'T then explain what you believe liberty to be. I explained to you what liberty means, and even quoted Vine's to prove my position.
You have been implying that you have a license to sin, only you shouldn't use that license to sin. Big deal! You think that weak semantical dance is getting you off the hook?
When a person accepts Jesus into their heart and accepts what Jesus did on the cross for them they are sealed (end of story)
2Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Yet Christians still do things that are sinful as even the apostle Paul so clearly pointed out....Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
Titus 3:8 Reject a divisive man (in reference to a brother in Christ) after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning
Yet because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit we can recognize ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
Titus 3:8 Reject a divisive man (in reference to a brother in Christ) after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning
Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
elohiym
Well-known member
Is a Christian allowed to sin? Yes or no.
If a Christian is not allowed to sin, what is the biblical consequence for doing willfully what is not allowed?
I simply agreed so I could diffuse your attempt at mocking and not distract from the topic at hand.
Jesus work on the cross does grant us liberty (a license) but that liberty should not be abused. (Romans 6).
The phrase "license to sin" implies that sinning is OK, which it isn't. That's why atheists use it to mock the grace message.
Anyone reading this thread can see that simply isn't true.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Elohiym is proclaiming infused righteousness rather than imputed righteousness.
PKevman
New member
Well said! And further Paul says in verse 12 of Romans 6:
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Do not LET sin reign in your mortal body. Do not LET sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey it in its lusts!
A Christian could LET sin reign in his mortal body if he isn't careful and walking closely with the Lord! That is why Paul says we should:
15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Ephesians 5:15-16
This comes on the heels of him saying:
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spiritis in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: “ Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”
Question for Elohiym: IF Christians do not EVER fail to walk as children of light, then WHY does the Bible specifically command them through the Apostle Paul to WALK as children of light? Do you not see the choice implicit in the text? Or do you choose to ignore it to hold up your own views?
elohiym
Well-known member
I find it telling and shocking that you cannot answer my questions, Knight. You just totally danced around the questions. Here they are again:
Do you ever steal, Knight? Do you ever commit adultery? Do you ever murder? Answer.
If you answer "yes" then you have some serious problems. If you answer "no" then you are either a liar or one step closer to losing this debate.
You are ignoring the obvious. Paul also said....
1 Cor 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
They were those things anymore, Knight. You are implying that they were but would still get to inherit the kingdom of God. Now either Paul was telling a lie, or he was saying those things weren't sins if "chirstians" did them, or you have just been proven wrong and lost this debate.
elohiym
Well-known member
I reject freewill, not choice. Choice does not necessarily imply freewill. We all have/had a choice to be carnal minded, walking in the flesh, or to be spiritually minded, walking in the spirit. What you posted doesn't effect my argument or position at all. What Paul is saying to them is essentially what E4E, Mystery, and myself have been saying to you, Knight, and the others in your camp.
If you are asking if I have sinned or slipped up since becoming a Christian I have nothing to hide, YES I have slipped up. I am not perfect.
elohiym
Well-known member
More accurately, I am proclaiming experiential righteousness as opposed to positional righteousness. Experiential righteousness does not deny the power of godliness, while the latter does.
A conversion of heart has to mean something. And a multitude of scriptures cannot be dismissed simply by claiming they are "someone else's mail."
elohiym
Well-known member
You are dancing around the question, Knight. Everyone can see that. I asked you specifically:
Do you ever steal, Knight? Do you ever commit adultery? Do you ever murder? Answer.
I have no doubt that you do plenty of other things that you believe are sins, even though you have no law to tell they are sins. However, I want to know if you do any of those specific acts mentioned above.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Are you in the Kingdom of God right now in your flesh & blood body?
elohiym
Well-known member
Then you should not try and shame me, or make a fuss, about me believing that you agreed you were preaching a license to sin. Next time don't agree if you don't really agree.
Liberty, as used in that context, DOES NOT mean license. I already proved that using Vine's. When Paul used it, he didn't mean license, but freedom from bondage. Big difference.
They probably use it because they think that is what you mean by it, as I and others believed (maybe still believe) that is what you mean by it. You even placed the word "license" in parenthesis next to "liberty" above.
Are you playing games, Knight? This is life and death stuff we are debating.
Anyone in your camp cannot see that is true; but others here can see that I preach salvation by grace through faith alone. If I didn't preach that, and thought salvation needed to be maintained, I would not hesitate to admit that and argue that position; but I don't believe salvation can be lost, so your claim is moot and unprovable.
elohiym
Well-known member
My flesh and blood is not in the Kingdom and cannot inherit the Kingdom. It must be redeemed when exchanged for a new body.
Your point?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Why does it have to be exchanged if you are already completely experientally righteous as you are? If your past sins are forgiven, and you never sin now,
you should live forever as you are.