Depends on what you mean by "the spirit".
Just like any word in just about any language, the word "spirit" has a sphere of meaning, and what it means depends on the context, and sometimes it could have multiple meanings within the same context.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
In this context, Solomon is using "spirit" in the same way he uses "dust," as a descriptor of what humans are made of.
Just as the dust man is made of will return to the earth, so too will the spirit return to God, either the life-force, in a figurative sense (for God is Life, and the source of all life), or the spirit, in a literal sense (for all men will stand before Him at some point, either in judgement, or being welcomed with open arms).
What Solomon does NOT say, that you have seemingly and erroneously inferred, is that after returning to God, that is the "spirit"'s final destination. In the sense that "spirit" means "life-force" imparted by God upon man, then yes, it is the final destination. But in the sense that "spirit" refers to the part of man that makes up who he is, then depending on whether a person is in a relationship with God, he is either at his final destination, or he is about to be cast into the lake of fire.
But Solomon isn't focusing on that.
This is one example of why Ecclesiastes is one of the hardest books in the Bible for a Christian to read and come out the other side of educated and edified, instead of confused and perplexed.
Solomon, in his wise, yet fallen state, isn't looking at the big picture. In this passage, he's focusing on specific portions of things, and while there is much wisdom to be gained from his written observations, if one does not have a firm grasp on the big picture, one can be lost by looking too closely at the details.
In this case, you've focused on one part of the process, while forgetting that there's more to it than just dust returning to the ground, and the spirit returning to God.
This describes death prior to Christ's resurrection.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
It is in keeping with Gen 3, where God described death as returning to the dust.
Indeed.... For the physical body, which is made of dust.
It is NOT in keeping with the view that the spirit goes to some other place for awhile.
Sure it is.
Just because the spirit takes a detour doesn't mean it doesn't ultimately return to God at some point, that point being judgement day.
So if the "spirit" is the person without a body, it doesn't work.
Sure it does.
But if the spirit is some sort of life force, or breath, from God, both Gen 3 and Ecc 12 make sense.
Supra.
No. Remember that in your favorite passage, above, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham. Why doesn't Samuel need them to carry him back to earth?
Why do you assume there were no angels?
The Bible doesn't say either way, and as far as I'm aware, doesn't indicate that there were none.
Good point! But He's not the God of everyone.
He IS God over all, though.
What's the difference? They believed in Christ, looking forward to His coming.
The point the Jesus made is that He is the God of the living, not of the dead.
Everyone's spirit is living, according to you.
In one sense, they are, but in another sense, they are not.
The problem you have is that you keep conflating the two senses.
In the sense that they exist and are conscious, they are "living."
In the sense that they have sinned and are fallen, and have not repented towards God, they are not "living," but dead.
A) Babies are alive, both physically and spiritually. They are living beings who are alive to God.
B) Babies who have died are dead physically, but alive to God.
C) A person who has sinned, but has not died, while he is unrepentant before God, is alive physically, but dead spiritually.
D) A person who has sinned, but has not died, but HAS asked God for forgiveness, is alive physically, and a new creature spiritually, having been raised with Christ by being baptised with the Holy Spirit.
E) A person who has sinned and died in his sin, is both dead physically, and dead spiritually. He will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged by God, in which case he will be permanently dead, both physically and spiritually, but also still existing and conscious. Such a state can't really be considered alive, since God is life, and they will have been separated from God, and therefore separated from life. They will also have been resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2), and they will experience the second death of Revelation 20:14.
F) A person who has sinned, and then died after being saved, is dead physically, but alive spiritually. He will spend eternity with God in heaven, and will never be separated from Him again (nor will he want to be). He is alive, literally (in that he is "living," he has life) and figuratively (in that "living" means he has a relationship with the One who is Life itself), but only resurrected spiritually (ie, with no new physical body yet). He will receive his glorified body upon the Second Coming of Christ, when He will raise and transform their bodies, at which point he will be both alive and resurrected, both spiritually and both physically.
And you're talking about spirits anyway, in that passage.
Yes, at that point, Abraham, et al, still had not been raised from the dead, yet were alive. (The first half of "F" above.)
Right--he looked forward to Christ's coming, and to His death and resurrection, since he believed God could raise Isaac from the dead.
Not quite.
This passage is saying that the day Christ was born, Abraham rejoiced, implying that Abraham still existed somewhere at the moment of Christ's birth. He saw Christ's birth, and was glad.
Not "he saw it as a future event," but rather, "he saw it as it was happening."
The rapture is a resurrection event.
Only for those saved in the Body of Christ, the "righteous."
If you're correct the[n] Elijah was already in a rapture state,
Wrong.
Elijah and Enoch are the only two men who have not seen death. However, Enoch's translation is a prefigurement of the rapture of the Church, while Elijah's is not.
The verses that describe Elijah being transported into God's presence do not match what Paul describes as the Rapture.
Elijah:
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
www.biblegateway.com
VS.
Paul's description of the Rapture of the Church:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Our Final Victory - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the...
www.biblegateway.com
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you...
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Both men (Enoch and Elijah) are the exception to the rule, that being Hebrews 9:27.
It is possible that they are the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, so they may yet taste physical death, but the generation of the Body of Christ that is raptured will never experience physical death, as far as I can tell.
then he was in his incorruptible, eternal body,
But he wasn't. And if he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation, then that's even further evidence that he wasn't.
and
1. He was not a spirit.
See what I mean about words having a sphere of meaning?
Here, you use "spirit" to describe someone as being a non-corporeal entity.
Elijah was clearly non-corporeal.
But He still existed.
And according to other scriptures (not specifically about Elijah), he had not received his resurrected body, and that won't happen until either A) (If he's one of the two witnesses in Revelation) after the third day of lying dead in the streets, or B) at the return of Christ.
2. Jesus was not the first fruits
Are you willing to stand by that interpretation?
Jesus is definitely the first-fruits.
No, God can't murder a man.
God does not kill people unjustly, indeed.
Not if Moses was only resurrected temporarily in some form of his old, corruptible body.
Why does he have to have been resurrected in his old body?
Why can't he appear as a spirit in the image of his old body? A "spiritual representation," if you will... In other words, why can't the "look" of his spirit be what he looked like at some point in his physical life?
I don't see a problem with this passage. If God brought them to the mountain without the disciples seeing it, He can remove them. But it tells us nothing of their form.
It DOES tell us, however, that they still exist, between the point of their death, and the point of their resurrection.
I'm trying to figure out why it's heretical
As W2G said, because it's counter to what the Bible states.
