Is believing/faith a work ?

Idolater

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I am glad you have committed no sin is "years".
How about the rest of the catholics?
If you can do it, why can't all of them do it?
Really not my place to judge though, is it? "There but for the grace of God ..."
 

Hoping

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Really not my place to judge though, is it? "There but for the grace of God ..."
So you are not a "spiritual" man?
Paul wrote..."But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,..." (1 Cor 2:15)
The ability to kill the old non-spiritual man is available to you when you are ready to quit serving sin and want to serve God instead.
 

beloved57

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Faith becomes a work, a meritorious work at that whenever its taught that Christ died for everyone, yet nobody is actually saved by that, His death merely made getting saved available or possible, but when someone adds their work of Faith or believing, that made them saved !

These will say though Christs death was a payment for sin, yet nobody is actually saved by it !
 

marke

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Faith becomes a work, a meritorious work at that whenever its taught that Christ died for everyone, yet nobody is actually saved by that, His death merely made getting saved available or possible, but when someone adds their work of Faith or believing, that made them saved !

These will say though Christs death was a payment for sin, yet nobody is actually saved by it !
Unbelievers think God cannot dues for the sins of the world without saving every sinner in the world. Nobody goes to hell for works any more than anyone goes to heaven because of works. Election is not based on works. Election is based on God's foreknowledge of whether sinners will receive the truth or reject the truth.
 

Hoping

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Faith becomes a work, a meritorious work at that whenever its taught that Christ died for everyone, yet nobody is actually saved by that, His death merely made getting saved available or possible, but when someone adds their work of Faith or believing, that made them saved !
Moot point, as the final judgement won't happen till the last day.
Then I will be able to say "I am saved."
Till then, by the grace of God, I will faithfully endure.
These will say though Christs death was a payment for sin, yet nobody is actually saved by it !
We have to go through the "door", as He won't do it for us.
God won't force a man to repent of sin or tell only the truth.
 

Bright Raven

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Moot point, as the final judgement won't happen till the last day.
Then I will be able to say "I am saved."
Till then, by the grace of God, I will faithfully endure.

We have to go through the "door", as He won't do it for us.
God won't force a man to repent of sin or tell only the truth.
Romans 10: 9-13
 

JudgeRightly

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Faith becomes a work, a meritorious work at that whenever its taught that Christ died for everyone, yet nobody is actually saved by that, His death merely made getting saved available or possible, but when someone adds their work of Faith or believing, that made them saved !

These will say though Christs death was a payment for sin, yet nobody is actually saved by it !

False, for the reasons outlined here:

 

beloved57

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See Faith is in contrast to works only when its viewed correctly in Gods Salvation package,

That is, Faith/Believing is not a action of the natural man, the unregenerate man that God views in them in order to save or justify them. However Faith or Believing is the Gift of God by which by Grace reigning, men are caused to believe in Christ or call upon His Name. Believing is the manifestation of the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in those whom God has chosen and predestinated to believe the Gospel of their Salvation, Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2 Thess 2:13-14


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Clete

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You can always tell when someone lets their doctrine tell them what the bible says vs. letting the bible tell them what their doctrine should be when this specific issue comes up because there is one verse that completely shuts down the entire question when it is simply read and allowed to say what it plainly states....

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

Anyone who tells you the belief is a work is a liar, wants you to believe that God is arbitrary or both.
 

marke

Well-known member
See Faith is in contrast to works only when its viewed correctly in Gods Salvation package,

That is, Faith/Believing is not a action of the natural man, the unregenerate man that God views in them in order to save or justify them. However Faith or Believing is the Gift of God by which by Grace reigning, men are caused to believe in Christ or call upon His Name. Believing is the manifestation of the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in those whom God has chosen and predestinated to believe the Gospel of their Salvation, Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2 Thess 2:13-14


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God knew Esau before he was born and God hated Esau from the beginning. Does that mean that God made Esau to be hated by God or that God knew Esau would reject God and therefore be hated by God? The Bible does not teach that God determined to make Esau in such a way that He could justly hate Esau from the beginning no matter how Esau might have responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Misguided Calvinists think the Potter designed the wicked from the beginning to be vessels of wrath without hope but they err because they do not read the Bible carefully. Of the wicked who will be lost forever, the Bible says the Potter began making them one way but when the clay became hardened He had to remake it another way. The fact the Potter had to remake the vessel is evidence that the Potter did not start out making the vessel wicked to be destroyed without hope.
 

Hoping

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Romans 10: 9-13
Where in those verses does it say one "IS" saved for doing that action?
Fact is, the calling on the name of the Lord is done at water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins.
And still, we must endure faithfully until the death of the vessel "to be saved" on the day of judgement.
 

JudgeRightly

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Where in those verses does it say one "IS" saved for doing that action?

It says "for if you do X then you shall be saved." Meaning, at the point you do X, you are saved, and not a moment before. Greek verb tenses are what tell us this, which are a bit more than "is," "was," "will be" etc for English.

If it said "for if you X, then you are saved," B57 would have a leg to stand on, because it could be interpreted that doing X is just an indicator that one is already saved.

Fact is, the calling on the name of the Lord is done at water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins.

Uh, no. Ordo Salutis (the logical order of salvation) is, when the message is preached, the sinner hears, then he believes, then he calls, and then he is saved. (Romans 10:13-14) Water baptism is a work. Paul teaches "not of works," but "by grace are you saved through faith."

Paul writes, comparing works (what Israel had to "DO" (including baptisms)) with faith:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above )or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” - Romans 10:5-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:5-15&version=NKJV

Do you see?

The righteousness which is of the law (doing good works to attain salvation (for under the law, faith was a required work)) is different than the righteousness which is of faith, in this way:

The righteousness which is of the law is achieved by the man who does things and lives by them. But the righteousness which is of faith is that one believes unto righteousness and makes confession unto salvation.

Not even the Baptists teach that calling is done at a water baptism. I know, because I used to be Baptist.

And still, we must endure faithfully until the death of the vessel "to be saved" on the day of judgement.

Still reading other people's mail, are you?
 

marke

Well-known member
Sounds like you've become a Calvinist. This statement of yours is false.

Here is a good article that might help you.

https://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/god-hated-esau
Calvinists do not believe Christians are chosen in Christ from the beginning based upon God's foreknowledge from the beginning of all things that will ever occur and every decision they will make in or outside of His will. Yet that is what I believe, proving I am not a Calvinist.
 

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Calvinists do not believe Christians are chosen in Christ from the beginning based upon God's foreknowledge from the beginning of all things that will ever occur and every decision they will make in or outside of His will. Yet that is what I believe, proving I am not a Calvinist.
I guess that you missed my point.
My point was that what you posted was both wrong and was very much exactly what a Calvinist would say.

Did you read the article? It's pretty short and addresses this issue very clearly.
 

Clete

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God knew Esau before he was born and God hated Esau from the beginning.
Nope. God never hated Esau in the sense you mean it here. The use of the term "hated" is a Hebrew idiom (figure of speech) that means "less favored".

Does that mean that God made Esau to be hated by God or that God knew Esau would reject God and therefore be hated by God?
No, it doesn't mean that at all. God is just. He is not arbitrary and does not despise unborn babies - ever - period.

The Bible does not teach that God determined to make Esau in such a way that He could justly hate Esau from the beginning no matter how Esau might have responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Correct. If it did, it would be proof that the bible is fantasy.

Misguided Calvinists think the Potter designed the wicked from the beginning to be vessels of wrath without hope but they err because they do not read the Bible carefully.
They do indeed err, but not because they fail to read the bible. They simply love Aristole more than they love God's word. It would be a good place to use the Hebrew idiom mentioned above. Calvinists "hate" the bible in the same sense God "hated" Esau.

Of the wicked who will be lost forever, the Bible says the Potter began making them one way but when the clay became hardened He had to remake it another way. The fact the Potter had to remake the vessel is evidence that the Potter did not start out making the vessel wicked to be destroyed without hope.
Exactly.

Ever ask a Calvinist whether God completed the first vessel He intended to make?

If you do, you'll get silence for an answer.
 
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