Is believing/faith a work ?

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Is believe in Rom 4:5 something someone does?

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

There is a difference between believing and faith.

Faith is a thing, a spiritual gift from God to be possessed and used by His children as is love and hope. It is objective. When played, it makes a distinctive sound like no other.

Belief is not the instrument. It is that sound that comes from the instrument when it is played and it is a beautiful sound in God's ear because it glorifies Christ. It is a subjective action on the part of those who have received the gift of faith.

Just as a musical instrument is not the sound and the sound is not the musical instrument, so faith is not believing. Both work together to accomplish God's redemptive purposes.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There is a difference between believing and faith.

Faith is a thing, a spiritual gift from God to be possessed and used by His children as is love and hope. It is objective. When played, it makes a distinctive sound like no other.

Belief is not the instrument. It is that sound that comes from the instrument when it is played and it is a beautiful sound in God's ear because it glorifies Christ. It is a subjective action on the part of those who have received the gift of faith.

Just as a musical instrument is not the sound and the sound is not the musical instrument, so faith is not believing. Both work together to accomplish God's redemptive purposes.
Please just answer the question

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Please just answer the question

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

He did. You just don’t want the scriptural and lexical/grammatical truth from scripture.

Faith is NOT a work. And believING is the work OF faith, not the person having the faith that is doing the believING.

But you will continue to read your false doctrinal errors into the inspired text, because that’s what humans do when they aren’t lovers of truth and lovers of God. You’re certainly not the only one, but you definitely are one who does this.

Nouns aren’t verbs. Man can’t believe if God doesn’t give man the thing that does the believing.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
He did. You just don’t want the scriptural and lexical/grammatical truth from scripture.

Faith is NOT a work. And believING is the work OF faith, not the person having the faith that is doing the believING.

But you will continue to read your false doctrinal errors into the inspired text, because that’s what humans do when they aren’t lovers of truth and lovers of God. You’re certainly not the only one, but you definitely are one who does this.

Nouns aren’t verbs. Man can’t believe if God doesn’t give man the thing that does the believing.

We agree on the faith/noun/gift but it seems you are saying that faith, not the person, subsequently performs the believing.
I think I would disagree - if that was your position. It seems to me that the person, having received faith as a gift, will use it; not that it will use itself independent of the individual's will.

Nevertheless, I am willing to listen to reason - something, I have found, that you possess by the truckload... :)
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
We agree on the faith/noun/gift but it seems you are saying that faith, not the person, subsequently performs the believing.
I think I would disagree - if that was your position. It seems to me that the person, having received faith as a gift, will use it; not that it will use itself independent of the individual's will.

Nevertheless, I am willing to listen to reason - something, I have found, that you possess by the truckload... :)

This is all regarding the general topic of Greek anarthrous nouns; a grammatical construct that is absolutely missing from English and most other languages. I’m convinced it’s one of the premiere reasons God inspired the use of Greek for the New Testament through its human authorship.

In English, nouns are referred to by either the definite article (the, this, that) or indefinite article (a, an). These are very simple distinctions for basic specificity of items. The definite article particularizes in a way that highlights a specific object over many/all such objects.

Greek nouns are all innately anarthrous, which most overarchingly means “unsegmented”; and the anarthrous form of the noun refers to the qualities, characteristics, and functional activities of the noun. This generally designates the state of being for the noun, referring to all its many aspects and facets.

An example would be “table”. In Greek, the default noun construct refers to “table-ness”, and broadly always refers to every possible attribute that could be ascribed to any table of any kind for any use.

Tables are generally utilized to hold certain things up. A dining table, for instance, is utilized to support various place settings of dishes and utensils and beverage containers, along with any number of prepared food dishes. A dining table would then be performing certain passive forms of action, but a table is never referred to as “tabling” when holding up things it was designed to support for usage.

This is a table’s functional activity, which is an aspect or facet of its “table-ness”. The table isn’t actively “doing” anything. It’s static, not dynamic. There is no economy of action being overtly accomplished by a table when it is exhibiting its functional activity as a table. There is no verb here. Only the noun and all its qualitative considerations.

The same is true for faith. It’s an anarthrous noun like all other Greek nouns. It’s the thing that comes out of the message/report in Romans 10:17 that is also a noun (but is almost universally misunderstood as a verb by English speakers).

“So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Hearing is a NOUN in both instances in this verse. It is NOT a verb indicating actING or resulting actION/S. It’s rendered as “report” (in the KJV and others) in the previous verse, but “hearing” in v17. More explicitly it is “the thing heard”, just as faith is “the thing believed”.

Faith is the confident assurance and persuasion that comes out of the thing heard as the thing believed. And faith is the anarthrous noun that has all internal functional activity for believING. Faith is the thing given by God so that when we “have” it we can then believe because faith has the functional activity we need to accomplish the act of believING.

We cannot believe without the faith itself. Faith has all believING within it, for belief (faith) is that which comes out of the thing heard as the thing believed. By man “having” faith, he then can function according to the funcional activity of the thing he has.

An example would be a person and a cell phone. A person cannot make a call on a cellular network without “having” a cell phone. The cell phone has all the internal functional hardware and software to make calls, so if someone “has” a cell phone they can make a call. But without the thing that does the calling, man cannot make any cell phone calls. It’s impossible.

The same is true of an axe and a tree. Man cannot chop down a tree unless he has an axe (or other implement). So it IS man chopping down a tree, but it’s the axe that is the thing man has to chop down the tree. There must be an axe or man cannot accomplish the action.

Without faith as the confident assurance and persuasion as the thing believed, man cannot believe. So the internal functional activity of faith is that which does the believING, but it is man who HAS the faith that believes. So man indeed believes, but only because he has faith.

Make no mistake, faith has all the latent internal functional activity for believING, and man does not. Man must be given faith by God for man to believe. Man only believes because he has faith. And faith in all these instances is articular. It is THE faith, not just “a” faith.

Anyone who has been confidently assured and persuaded by a message/report that came by any word/s has “a” faith. But THE faith is the thing that comes out of THE message/report which came by means of THE very Rhema of God.

The quality of the rhema is the means of the message/report as the thing heard. And out of that will come a commensurate quality of faith that will either be THE faith (by God’s Rhema) or “another” faith (by whatever other rhema).

Of course man believes. But man only believes because THE faith has the internal functional activity of believING within it, and that man can then thus believe.
 

Aimiel

New member
I know that from a child: I knew Scripture to be Truth. I know that no one ever told me that. No one in my family believed in God, for the most part. I was told, "You'd better not," by my mom when I told her that I was going to go forward at church the following Sunday and accept Christ. I believed long before I ever heard a sermon. I knew deep down inside that Scripture contained The Living Word of God. I have no explanation as to how or why; I just know. This isn't because I made any effort to believe or had to think about the decision for two seconds. I just knew. I still know. I know far more now, having a long-standing dynamic relationship with The Living God, Who lives inside me, but I still know. I'm not responsible for my faith or my beliefs. They're a gift from God. He put them in there. I'm very comfortable with them. I've doubted and asked every foolish question you might imagine, but I've seen my faith bring me back to belief in God and His Word every time. It's not my doing. I'd un-do it if it were up to me. He has kept me in the faith and will do so until the end.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I know that from a child: I knew Scripture to be Truth. I know that no one ever told me that. No one in my family believed in God, for the most part. I was told, "You'd better not," by my mom when I told her that I was going to go forward at church the following Sunday and accept Christ. I believed long before I ever heard a sermon. I knew deep down inside that Scripture contained The Living Word of God. I have no explanation as to how or why; I just know. This isn't because I made any effort to believe or had to think about the decision for two seconds. I just knew. I still know. I know far more now, having a long-standing dynamic relationship with The Living God, Who lives inside me, but I still know. I'm not responsible for my faith or my beliefs. They're a gift from God. He put them in there. I'm very comfortable with them. I've doubted and asked every foolish question you might imagine, but I've seen my faith bring me back to belief in God and His Word every time. It's not my doing. I'd un-do it if it were up to me. He has kept me in the faith and will do so until the end.

This demonstrates beautifully exactly what I have been saying. :)
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I know that from a child: I knew Scripture to be Truth. I know that no one ever told me that. No one in my family believed in God, for the most part. I was told, "You'd better not," by my mom when I told her that I was going to go forward at church the following Sunday and accept Christ. I believed long before I ever heard a sermon. I knew deep down inside that Scripture contained The Living Word of God. I have no explanation as to how or why; I just know. This isn't because I made any effort to believe or had to think about the decision for two seconds. I just knew. I still know. I know far more now, having a long-standing dynamic relationship with The Living God, Who lives inside me, but I still know. I'm not responsible for my faith or my beliefs. They're a gift from God. He put them in there. I'm very comfortable with them. I've doubted and asked every foolish question you might imagine, but I've seen my faith bring me back to belief in God and His Word every time. It's not my doing. I'd un-do it if it were up to me. He has kept me in the faith and will do so until the end.
Believing is a act of the mind/heart no matter how you try to spin it. And so its a work man does with his mind/heart.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

Aimiel

New member
Believing is a act of the mind/heart no matter how you try to spin it. And so its a work man does with his mind/heart.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth only because God put that belief in me. I'm nothing. His Faith inside of me does the work. I can do nothing good, except my Father gives me to do it.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth only because God put that belief in me. I'm nothing. His Faith inside of me does the work. I can do nothing good, except my Father gives me to do it.

Its still a work, cant get around it. Believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth are works men do.

Look at Rom 10:9-10

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/FONT]

In vs 9 confess is a verb homologeō and believe is a verb pisteu, The same is true in Vs 10 of the same words. Its no way around they are works done by man, even if God gave the man or women the ability to do those works by His Grace !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth only because God put that belief in me. I'm nothing. His Faith inside of me does the work. I can do nothing good, except my Father gives me to do it.

Sounds very pious. So does that mean people who never believe in their heart nor confess with their mouth like you did, does it mean God didnt put His faith in them to the work in them like He did for you ?
 

Aimiel

New member
Its still a work, cant get around it. Believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth are works men do.
You're attempting to make The Bible into a lie. Scripture says that NO ONE has entered into Heaven on works. I believe Scripture. Yes, we have faith in God. Yes, believing is a work. That work being done in us by God is His Grace. We don't have the faith to believe. We don't have the courage to stand up and say, "I want to be saved." God does it for us, in us and through us. He is Sovereign. We can do NOTHING good, except God do it through us. That's a fact. There is NONE good. None seeks after God. Fact.
 

Aimiel

New member
Sounds very pious. So does that mean people who never believe in their heart nor confess with their mouth like you did, does it mean God didnt put His faith in them to the work in them like He did for you ?
That's what Scripture says. The wicked were created for the day of destruction.
 

Aimiel

New member
So you believe God doesnt Love everyone without exception nor Christ didnt die for everyone without exception ? Correct ?
I didn't say or do I believe either of your premises; I do however believe in pre-destination. God knows the end from the beginning. There's NOTHING He doesn't know. Exhaustively.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
aimiel

Yes, believing is a work.

Thats my point, if a person says God saved them on the basis that they believed, a work of theirs, then they believe in salvation by their works, which nullifies Salvation by Grace !
 

Aimiel

New member
False accusation, Im stating a true fact. You are in denial
You're attempting to make The Bible into a lie. Scripture says that NO ONE has entered into Heaven on works. I believe Scripture. Yes, we have faith in God. Yes, believing is a work. That work being done in us by God is His Grace. We don't have the faith to believe. We don't have the courage to stand up and say, "I want to be saved." God does it for us, in us and through us. He is Sovereign. We can do NOTHING good, except God do it through us. That's a fact. There is NONE good. None seeks after God. Fact.
 

oatmeal

New member
The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:


  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

    The mind is :

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

    Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

    So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

    Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

    But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.



Salvation is not a work of the flesh as you may have pointed out.

Salvation is a completed work of God in Christ which we receive by doing Romans 10:9.

Does it take effort on our part to meet the prerequisites of Romans 10:9? Yes.

But did we earn our salvation?

No it is a gift bought and paid for by God in Christ.

Thus it is free to us if we are willing to hold out our mouth and heart to receive it.

Salvation is a gift which costs us nothing
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I didn't say or do I believe either of your premises; I do however believe in pre-destination. God knows the end from the beginning. There's NOTHING He doesn't know. Exhaustively.

Then it sounds like to me you are in contradiction and doublemindness
 
Top