Is believing/faith a work ?

beloved57

Well-known member
But it's in this thread; you said so. Why two threads on the same thing?

If obedience is not required for salvation, why is it required as you said?





You said, "required". Why? In order to get to heaven?



Again, you said, "required". Why? In order to get to heaven?

Is believing required for salvation?

Are works required for salvation?

Is believing/faith required for a person to get to heaven?

You partially covered this in your thread; surely you can discuss this in your thread.
You're confused about this thread it hasn't anything to do with what you are talking about. Maybe you ought to read again the Op to understand what the premise of my thread is about.

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FineLinen

Well-known member
What is faith?

Faith= pisteo= strong persuasion

Pisteo akin to peitho

We read of the “faith of God” -Romans 3.3

“Your faith” -Rom. 1.8 /2 Cor.2.5/ 2 Cor. 15.17/ Eph. 1.15/ 2 Tim. 1.3/1 Tim. 3.9/ 2 Tim. 1.3

“The faith of Christ” -Gal. 2,16

“The faith of the Son of God” -Gal. 2.20"

“The faith of Christ” -Phil. 3.9

“Profession of our faith.” -Hebr. 10.23

“Christ the Author & Finisher of our faith” -Hebr. 12.2

Author and Finisher of [our] faith
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
What is faith?

Faith= pisteo= strong persuasion

Pisteo akin to peitho

We read of the “faith of God” -Romans 3.3

“Your faith” -Rom. 1.8 /2 Cor.2.5/ 2 Cor. 15.17/ Eph. 1.15/ 2 Tim. 1.3/1 Tim. 3.9/ 2 Tim. 1.3

“The faith of Christ” -Gal. 2,16

“The faith of the Son of God” -Gal. 2.20"

“The faith of Christ” -Phil. 3.9

“Profession of our faith.” -Hebr. 10.23

“Christ the Author & Finisher of our faith” -Hebr. 12.2

Author and Finisher of [our] faith

Wrong.

Faith is pistis, the noun. Pisteuo is the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. Pistis, though directly related to pisteuo, is not pisteuo.

Strike 3 HUNDRED for you. Sigh.
 

blackbirdking

New member
You're confused about this thread it hasn't anything to do with what you are talking about. Maybe you ought to read again the Op to understand what the premise of my thread is about.
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Really now?
Your OP:

The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:


  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

    The mind is :

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

    Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

    So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

    Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

    But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.



Your second post:

So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !

Your third post:

Spam rabbit trail

Your fourth post:

Amen. As 2 Tim 2:10 emphasizes "not according to our works" not because we believe, since believing is a work we do!

Your fifth post:

Believing is a work. That's the point of this thread.
You affirm that believing is works and that salvation is not by works/believing/faith.

Then this:


Any act of obedience to Gods command is a work, a good work. Believing on Christ is a commandment of God, so therefore a good work 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Acts 16:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The word believe here is the greek word
pisteuō and in this instance its an imperative which means:

The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.So believing here would be a good work performed by the Jailor if he obeyed the imperative !

And if his act of obeying this command caused God to save him, then he was saved because of a god work he performed !

Then you repeat:

Here's another scripture that indicates faith has an element of action to it. Jesus says in Mk 11:22

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

This is an imperative that requires action

[FONT=arial, helvetica]The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses[/FONT] a command to the hearer to perform a certain action [FONT=arial, helvetica]by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]People try to dismiss truth by worldly arguments, the wisdom of this world.

Yes Faith here is a noun however an action is required, which is a work
[/FONT]

After all the blustering about works you slip up and admit that works are required, implying that they are required for salvation; that you do is undeniable, as is shown by your posts.

I wouldn't want to discuss it either if I were you, so I don't blame you for trying to avoid my question about your points.

You really do want to believe what you've been taught about God, but you know it just doesn't add up; therefore, you slipped up and portrayed what you really believe. You know down deep inside that salvation is by a co-operative action by God and man and that believing is required by man and that man has salvation only when he has believing/faith/works, as you call it.

Your quandary cannot be avoided while adhering to the monergistic conundrum of Calvinism. Keep up the good work of exposing how your doctrine is indeed the doctrine of man.

Your entire doctrine is based upon your ability to comprehend the character and existence of God, while claiming others to be boasting about their ability to believe.

Read the Bible, all of it, without man's preconceived notions, and it will straighten you out.
And... never forget that a god who creates evil, cannot be trusted.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Really now?
Your OP:



Your second post:



Your third post:



Your fourth post:



Your fifth post:


You affirm that believing is works and that salvation is not by works/believing/faith.

Then this:




Then you repeat:



After all the blustering about works you slip up and admit that works are required, implying that they are required for salvation; that you do is undeniable, as is shown by your posts.

I wouldn't want to discuss it either if I were you, so I don't blame you for trying to avoid my question about your points.

You really do want to believe what you've been taught about God, but you know it just doesn't add up; therefore, you slipped up and portrayed what you really believe. You know down deep inside that salvation is by a co-operative action by God and man and that believing is required by man and that man has salvation only when he has believing/faith/works, as you call it.

Your quandary cannot be avoided while adhering to the monergistic conundrum of Calvinism. Keep up the good work of exposing how your doctrine is indeed the doctrine of man.

Your entire doctrine is based upon your ability to comprehend the character and existence of God, while claiming others to be boasting about their ability to believe.

Read the Bible, all of it, without man's preconceived notions, and it will straighten you out.
And... never forget that a god who creates evil, cannot be trusted.
You don't understand how I'm using required and the context to which its said. So you still seem not to understand the point of the Op. It has nothing to do with your inquiry sorry.

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FineLinen

Well-known member
Wrong.

Faith is pistis, the noun. Pisteuo is the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. Pistis, though directly related to pisteuo, is not pisteuo.

Strike 3 HUNDRED for you. Sigh.

Dear P.P.S. I appreciate your advisement. "Peitho and pisteuo" (to trust) are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

“This is the God of the gospel of grace. A God who, out of love for us, sent the only Son He ever had wrapped in our skin. He learned how to walk, stumbled and fell, cried for His milk, sweated blood in the night, was lashed with a whip and showered with spit, was fixed to a cross, and died whispering forgiveness on us all.” - Brennan Manning-
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

Not= μή=

The absolute negative primary word.

Dear Beloved 57 : Repeat NOT!

“The chief proof of man’s real greatness lies in his perception of his own smallness”
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Dear P.P.S. I appreciate your advisement. "Peitho and pisteuo" (to trust) are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

“This is the God of the gospel of grace. A God who, out of love for us, sent the only Son He ever had wrapped in our skin. He learned how to walk, stumbled and fell, cried for His milk, sweated blood in the night, was lashed with a whip and showered with spit, was fixed to a cross, and died whispering forgiveness on us all.” - Brennan Manning-

And now an attempt to allegly “school me” on language. Puh-lease. It’s you who used the verb as the noun. I said nothing of peitho and pisteuo.

You expose your overt ignorance with these forays. Why would you perpetually do that?

And what’s with all the stupid closing blurp or quotes? You’re a trip.
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
And now an attempt to allegly “school me” on language. Puh-lease. It’s you who used the verb as the noun. I said nothing of peitho and pisteuo.

You expose your overt ignorance with these forays. Why would you perpetually do that?

And what’s with all the stupid closing blurp or quotes? You’re a trip.

Dear P.P.S. I do appreciate your kind remarks. I mentioned to my precious matrimonial partner that everybody hates me.

The response= "everybody has not met you yet."

"If ever I want to amuse myself with an idiot, I have not far to look for one. I laugh at myself." -Frederic Farrar-

Frederic W. Farrar - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 

RealityJerk

New member
A genuine saving faith always bears fruit/works. A faith that doesn't work, is a useless faith, of no use to anyone. Such "faith" is worthless and has no redemptive value. Anyone that tells you, a person can have faith and not manifest the fruits of faith, is probably under the influence of demons or strong drink.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Dear P.P.S. I do appreciate your kind remarks. I mentioned to my precious matrimonial partner that everybody hates me.

The response= "everybody has not met you yet."

"If ever I want to amuse myself with an idiot, I have not far to look for one. I laugh at myself." -Frederic Farrar-

Frederic W. Farrar - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

You don’t even know the meaning of the word hate. Nor do you know the meaning of the word love. So therein lie two aspects of your whole series of problems.

But be sure and attempt to blame the whole world for your self-inflicted issues.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
A genuine saving faith always bears fruit/works. A faith that doesn't work, is a useless faith, of no use to anyone. Such "faith" is worthless and has no redemptive value. Anyone that tells you, a person can have faith and not manifest the fruits of faith, is probably under the influence of demons or strong drink.

But it is the OP who is insisting that faith (the noun) itself IS a work. This is entirely different from faith being the source of works and that faith without them is dead.
 

RealityJerk

New member
But it is the OP who is insisting that faith (the noun) itself IS a work. This is entirely different from faith being the source of works and that faith without them is dead.

I'd say faith is a work of God in us. For example, faith comes through hearing the word, but that faith that is generated through the hearing of God's work, is a divine work. That word is described in the NT as "Energia", divine energy. The word "Energia" is often used for "Work". Faith is a divine energy, working within and through us. We can undermine that work, that energy, interrupting it, by surrendering to the impulses of the flesh. Our faith is a work of God, but it doesn't find its origin or source in us. It descends from the Heavenly Father, from our Creator.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I'd say faith is a work of God in us. For example, faith comes through hearing the word, but that faith that is generated through the hearing of God's work, is a divine work. That word is described in the NT as "Energia", divine energy. The word "Energia" is often used for "Work". Faith is a divine energy, working within and through us. We can undermine that work, that energy, interrupting it, by surrendering to the impulses of the flesh. Our faith is a work of God, but it doesn't find its origin or source in us. It descends from the Heavenly Father, from our Creator.

Faith is the result OF the work of God in us. Energia is latent potentiality for work. Not the work itself. It’s the workER of the work. The delegated source, directly from God. Faith is a noun.

Receiving a thing (noun) is not a work. God giving the noun is the work. And the “hearing” in Romans 10:17 is also a noun. It’s not acting as an act with a resulting action. It’s the message/report/news itself.

No need to pander to the OP and confuse the issues. Faith is a noun, and is not believING. Faith is not a verb. Faith is not a work. Faith is the noun that is the resulting thing from God’s work alone.
 

glorydaz

New member
Faith is the result OF the work of God in us. Energia is latent potentiality for work. Not the work itself. It’s the workER of the work. The delegated source, directly from God. Faith is a noun.

Receiving a thing (noun) is not a work. God giving the noun is the work. And the “hearing” in Romans 10:17 is also a noun. It’s not acting as an act with a resulting action. It’s the message/report/news itself.

No need to pander to the OP and confuse the issues. Faith is a noun, and is not believING. Faith is not a verb. Faith is not a work. Faith is the noun that is the resulting thing from God’s work alone.

Then in regards to Romans 10:14, would hear mean being persuaded?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Then in regards to Romans 10:14, would hear mean being persuaded?

Ultimately, yes. Faith (as a noun) is confident assurance and persuasion. And it’s in reference to the thing believed which is the thing heard.

How shall they hear (in that context) means there must be a messenger (the Preacher) for there to be a message.
 

blackbirdking

New member
You don't understand how I'm using required and the context to which its said. So you still seem not to understand the point of the Op. Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Again, I do understand why you don't want to discuss an apparent contradiction by alleging insufficiency of my understanding.

It has nothing to do with your inquiry sorry.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
I accept your apology.

However, it is this thread where you said that Salvation is not by works, and, it is this thread where you said believing is a work, and, it is this thread where you said believing is required; therefore, this thread is the place to question what you said.

So Jesus said repentance and believing are required works.
You say salvation is without works/believing/faith.
Good job; well done, again!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Again, I do understand why you don't want to discuss an apparent contradiction by alleging insufficiency of my understanding.


I accept your apology.

However, it is this thread where you said that Salvation is not by works, and, it is this thread where you said believing is a work, and, it is this thread where you said believing is required; therefore, this thread is the place to question what you said.

So Jesus said repentance and believing are required works.
You say salvation is without works/believing/faith.
Good job; well done, again!
Again you are failing to understand my point so there's nothing to discuss. It would serve you better to start a thread of your own about requirements. This thread isn't about that.

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blackbirdking

New member
Again you are failing to understand my point so there's nothing to discuss. It would serve you better to start a thread of your own about requirements. This thread isn't about that.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Ok, I'll go back to the OP.

The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:


  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

Yes, faith is a work, a product of using one's hearing/mental ability. Using one's mind is the work performed in order for one to have the product that is faith.


an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

The mind is :

(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

Believing is not work; believing is a work (per your original assertion) which is the result of accepting knowledge; accepting knowledge is the result of making a choice; making a choice to accept knowledge is the act which causes believing to happen.

Everything a man believes is founded upon his choice(s) ("process of decision making" as you said) concerning knowledge. Choosing is the work by which belief is formed; belief is the knowledge that one chooses to accept. Believing happens because belief exists; thus, believing is the product of belief.

Therefore, we agree according to your highlighted statements above.

Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.



Summary:
We agree that faith is a work.
We agree that believing is a work.

However:
Why did you end this post with "But now Salvation is not by works", since that was not your point?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
blackbird

Why did you end this post with "But now Salvation is not by works", since that was not your point?

That should be a reasonable conclusion, for many people believe they are saved because they believed. Thats saying you are saved because of your work. Thats not scriptural
 
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