How to respond to classical theists who dodge Open Theism arguments

JudgeRightly

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Taking you off ignore for a moment because this needs to be addressed.

It is VERY hard to not see omniscience in Peter and Jesus' dialogue

It's very hard to see omniscience in Peter and Jesus' dialogue.

You have to read it into the verse.

But you can't understand that until you have a paradigm shift, so as to NOT read omniscience into the text.

without a very hard song and dance (gently, but firmly):

Bearing false witness is a sin, Lon. Don't do that.

Try reading the passage without thinking of "omniscience," and instead thinking of the fact that Jesus had just spent the past THREE YEARS living with Peter and the others... (It also helps to read the passage in modern English, so that you're not having to interpret the text into modern English in order to understand what it's saying.)

Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:‘I will strike the Shepherd,And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.” Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”And so said all the disciples.

Jesus knew Peter, not the future. And because He knew Peter, just as He knew everyone else in the world, predicting what one person would do in a given situation is no hard task.

He knew how Peter would react when pressed, because He knew Peter was a bit of a coward, who didn't understand Jesus' plan! You could even say he was a bit of a basket case! (cf. Matthew 26:51; Mark 14:47; Luke 22:50; John 18:10)

This interaction continued upon the next time Peter and Jesus spoke together:

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Feed My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

What is evident is omniscience by description and statement from Peter in clarity. Anything else is a very hard song and dance that is determinism, no longer Open Theism in any consistency and is awkward, even damaging to the text.

Only if you intentionally read omniscience into the text.

I know, it's hard to rid yourself of your a priori beliefs, but it's necessary if you want to better understand the text.

Peter isn't saying "you are omniscient."

Peter was conceding that Jesus knew him better than he knew himself, or at the very least, better than Peter wanted to say he knew himself... Because Jesus correctly, based on His relationship with Peter from the past three years, knew that Peter would deny him, not because He knew the future, but because He knew Peter.

Again, there's no reason to read omniscience into the text.

Relevant:
 

Nick M

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What's the difference.
He arranged to have 3 people ask him. He didn't see the future which does not exist. Another similar text is the Exodus. Different people that can translate say it is off a little, but it doesn't change anything.


Exodus 14
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.
 

way 2 go

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He arranged to have 3 people ask him. He didn't see the future which does not exist. Another similar text is the Exodus. Different people that can translate say it is off a little, but it doesn't change anything.


Exodus 14
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.




G-d knew Peter would deny him 3 times
Just as he knows they will not repent in the tribulation

(Revelation of John 16:11) And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds.


(Revelation of John 9:20-21) [20] And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). [21] And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
 
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