Spiral? More like a full on diving off a cliff.
How much should the government tax
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Yes. I see government as first and foremost authorized penalties. iow, government are people who are authorized to inflict penalties upon other people.
Within your house, I presume as 'head of household' or something like this, you in a way possess the authorization to inflict penalties upon those who live with you.
And immediately the need for some government over you, becomes apparent. What if you decide the penalty is execution for some infraction? Do you have the right to kill as a penalty?
And republicanism (small R) is the form of democracy practiced most among democracies, and the American republic operates according to inalienable rights, and does not permit government to penalize anybody such that their inalienable rights are infringed, and also we authorize government to penalize anyone who infringes someone else's inalienable right to life[, limb], liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (aka religious liberty), among many others.
If you and your neighbors were the only people around your area, such that there was no government, then I think your collective political will would create government of some sort, to deal with the fact that, in the light of inalienable rights, there is a need for some people to be authorized to inflict penalties upon others, and this authorization would take the form of law, that explicates hopefully clearly what authorizes government to inflict penalties, and what those penalties are authorized to be.
This is why I said that anarchy would inevitable "devolve" into government at some point, when people without any government are left to their own devices.
Because all the alternatives to republicanism are worse than republicanism. And I think American republicanism is the pick of the litter the world round, and that other republican governments ought to take our republicanism as a starting point. They should "peg" their republicanism to ours. Whatever laws we have, however we deal with things, whatever rights we recognize, affirm, protect, and defend, they also ought to do things in the same way.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The defense against the downward spiral is to ceaselessly fight for inalienable rights. They are the only things that protect minorities from the very real, in democracies, "tyranny of the majority."
drbrumley
Well-known member
and theocracies, and monarchies and every government you can name
Taxes: what does the bible really say about them?
Lets start with Matthew 22:17–21.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
And here is what the Apostle Paul as to say about taxes in Romans 13:6–7
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Paul makes in clear that we are to be subject to the governing authorities in Romans 13:1–7
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Lets start with Matthew 22:17–21.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
And here is what the Apostle Paul as to say about taxes in Romans 13:6–7
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Paul makes in clear that we are to be subject to the governing authorities in Romans 13:1–7
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Now as to how much? Under the Kings of Israel there was a there was a temple tax that had been set up by Moses to pay for the sacrifices and incense. This was voluntary, The amount was half of a shekel equal to about half an ounce of silver. Israel also has taxes to pay for the military and to run its government. There was also a draft. Even in Roman times according to researchers taxes didn't total over 1 percent of a person's income. So 10 percent is theft.
Right Divider
Body part
tax
/taks/
noun
noun: tax; plural noun: taxes
1.
a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.
com·pul·so·ry
/kəmˈpəlsərē/
adjective
adjective: compulsory
required by law or a rule; obligatory.
"compulsory military service"
involving or exercising compulsion; coercive.
A "voluntary tax" is an oxymoron.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Much to dig thru with this answer, so let's start with this one shall we? When this is completed we can move on to Romans 13.
This is the common, albeit wrong interpretation that prevails thruout the world. Jesus is not endorsing taxation at all. If you really look at it, and pray and study it, this answer by Jesus is absolutely BRILLIANT and SIMPLISTIC!!!! Jesus is telling the Herodians and Pharisees to make a decision on who are they going to serve. You serve Rome, give tribute to Rome...BUT…If you serve God, give tribute to God..
Basically he is saying pick a side. The state/government has never been a friend to God. Jesus and Peter even had a conversation about taxes before this episode even took place...and Jesus demonstrated what we should do, lest we offend them...
drbrumley
Well-known member
And to further enforce [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION]'s point....
Taxation is theft. My post on the topic hasn't even been addressed yet, so take a stab at it.....
Why is taxation theft?
In the words of Murray Rothbard, who wrote in The Ethics of Liberty:
All other persons and groups in society (except for acknowledged and sporadic criminals such as thieves and bank robbers) obtain their income voluntarily: either by selling goods and services to the consuming public, or by voluntary gift (e.g., membership in a club or association, bequest, or inheritance). Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion, by threatening dire penalties should the income not be forthcoming. That coercion is known as “taxation,” although in less regularized epochs it was often known as “tribute.”
Taxation is theft, purely and simply, even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.
It would be an instructive exercise for the skeptical reader to try to frame a definition of taxation which does not also include theft. Like the robber, the State demands money at the equivalent of gunpoint; if the taxpayer refuses to pay his assets are seized by force, and if he should resist such depredation, he will be arrested or shot if he should continue to resist.
Taxation is theft. My post on the topic hasn't even been addressed yet, so take a stab at it.....
Why is taxation theft?
In the words of Murray Rothbard, who wrote in The Ethics of Liberty:
All other persons and groups in society (except for acknowledged and sporadic criminals such as thieves and bank robbers) obtain their income voluntarily: either by selling goods and services to the consuming public, or by voluntary gift (e.g., membership in a club or association, bequest, or inheritance). Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion, by threatening dire penalties should the income not be forthcoming. That coercion is known as “taxation,” although in less regularized epochs it was often known as “tribute.”
Taxation is theft, purely and simply, even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.
It would be an instructive exercise for the skeptical reader to try to frame a definition of taxation which does not also include theft. Like the robber, the State demands money at the equivalent of gunpoint; if the taxpayer refuses to pay his assets are seized by force, and if he should resist such depredation, he will be arrested or shot if he should continue to resist.
I've just been super busy, and I thought I had posted my response, but I never posted. I'll get to it when I get home in about 45 minutes