ECT How is Paul's message different?

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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According to you, Peter should have been accursed, because according to you Peter preached a different gospel to the Galatians than the one Paul preached to them.

11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
 

HisServant

New member
Nope. There are two right there. Those who can count see two: 1. the gospel of the uncircumcision and 2. the gospel of the circumcision. That's two!

You must have failed English class to come to that conclusion. Only one gospel in that verse.

You also haven't done your homework on why it was written this way.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

What does that have to do with two gospels?

The passage you quoted above proves there was one gospel.

It also proves Peter was preaching to Gentiles.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You must have failed English class to come to that conclusion. Only one gospel in that verse.

:thumb:

Most modern translations make it clear that there was one gospel to two different groups of people.

(Gal 2:7) On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.
 

turbosixx

New member
My question is what are you saying. You claim Galatians 2 is proclaiming one gospel to different groups. Peter says otherwise. How do you respond to Peter saying Jew first then gentile for his ministry?

Peter preached the gospel in Acts 2 and then to the Gentiles in Acts 10. Jew first. Paul said to the Jew first as well.




I know you are. That cannot be, or Peter is lying in Acts 15. They both can't be true.


7And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

I will get to your misdirection after you explain the statements in Acts 15 and Galatians 2.

Peter says by his mouth the gentiles will hear his gospel.

I don't see a conflict between Gal 2 and Acts 15. The same gospel saves Jew and Gentile.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Did Peter preach something different in Acts 10 than Acts 2?

46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Yep, Paul taught the Jews first. It was his custom. Did he teach one gospel for Jew and one for Gentiles?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Way 2 Go,

Nothing you have cited contradicts the fact that Abram was justified by faith when he believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

He did not go from being justified by faith to being justified by works when God commanded circumcision.

That's the whole point of Romans 4:4.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Way 2 Go,

Nothing you have cited contradicts the fact that Abram was justified by faith when he believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

He did not go from being justified by faith to being justified by works when God commanded circumcision.

That's the whole point of Romans 4:4.
That's exactly right. (well, almost exactly - circumcision was not optional for Abraham)

Doesn't change a thing.

No, under no circumstances will I make the slightest attempt to explain. You're not at all interested in explanations.
 
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sfontel

New member
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. II Pe !
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Update:
I found your reply on post 103 and the added one. I will go over it and reply back to that post. Is there a way to know when someone replies to you and not the thread?

I'm afraid not. And when a thread goes nuts with bunches of people throwing in their two cents, posts can sometimes get lost.

One gospel with different audience.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
If it's the same gospel but just aimed at the Gentile then why did Paul preach it to the Jew first, as your own cited verse clearly states?

Further, there would be no way to preach the gospel that applied to the Jews only to the Gentiles without it having changed so either way you have a different message being preached.

Further still, the question(s) no one has answered is, if its just a different audience then where's the need for Paul in the first place? The Twelve had already been told to go to the whole world and they did not do so - why?

I agree with everything you have said except we see the end of the old covenants and the beginning of the new happening at different times. I would think the answer to this question should make it clear one had ended and the new began so here it goes.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

By what covenant did they receive the Holy Spirit and have their sins forgiven?
You're switching terms on me here. I am not a covenant theologian and I don't think you are either so I'm going to use the term you use but just be wary of the potential for confusion.

The direct answer to your question is, the Covenant of Circumcision, or what I've been referring to as the Dispensation of Law, or the Dispensation of the Kingdom. Acts 2 and the events therein is all about the direct fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks (a.k.a. Pentecost), a Feast ordained by God in Leviticus 23. The events of Acts 2 happened directly on the Feast of Weeks. Not a day or two before or after, but exactly on time just as had been the fulfillment of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits a few weeks before. There can be no doubt that these events had to do with Israel and the prophesied program that had been in place for Israel for centuries.

The plan was for Christ to return quickly, within a year or so (Luke 13:6-9) and to give Israel its kingdom. This is why it is commonly referred to as the dispensation of the Kingdom and why their gospel is often called the "Kingdom Gospel" and they, "Kingdom believers".(Note that Peter was given "the keys to the Kingdom"). And, if you'll recall in my previous post with the long quotation from chapter three of "The Plot", Peter's references to "the times of refreshing" and specifically to the prophet Samuel, make it clear that Peter was offering Israel their Kingdom (2 Samuel 7:12-16), the requirement for which was that they corporately repent, which is what Acts 2:38 (the verse you quoted above) is about. Its the same gospel that Jesus and the Twelve had been preaching throughout the gospels except that now the Twelve understand what Jesus meant when He talked about His death and resurrection and how it fits into the plan that God has had all along for the nation of Israel.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​

The term 'Christ', as you know is 'Messiah', the anointed One, and in the mind of a first century Jew, the anointed Prophet, Priest and King. What is being offered here is not merely individual spiritual salvation but the return of Jesus as their promised Messiah and the beginning of Israel's promised Kingdom.

Acts 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Turbosixx,

I don't think you're following Nick M's point. He stated it most clearly here...

Nick M said:
How can this be?

Acts 15

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Paul has the same thing. To the Jew first then the gentile. Both of them go to the Jew and gentile. Therefore, Galatians 2 is a lie or it is the message, not the audience. Your claim and Acts 15 are incompatible. I don't expect a legitimate reply to me or Clete. You don't even acknowledge what they say;

James

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Do you see? It's the same audience!

If nothing had changed then they all would have continued as they were but they didn't. Galatians 2 explicitly states that Paul went to the Gentiles (Paul makes it clear that his message was for everyone and made no distinction between Jew or Gentile) and the Twelve stayed in Jerusalem and ministered there. WHY OH WHY WOULD THEY HAVE DONE THAT IF NOTHING HAD CHANGED AND EVERYONE HAD THE SAME MESSAGE?

Here's why...

I Corinthians 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Hi and where in the bible did Peter and Paul preach the same gospel ??
I gave a number of examples in the post you are responding to.

Explain Gal 2:7
It says that Paul was appointed to take the gospel to Gentiles, in the same way that Peter was appointed to take the gospel (the same one) to Jews.

I can see how it could be confusing. Most translations have followed the KJV in supplying the words the gospel a second time. Those words aren't in the Greek text; the translators added them to try to clarify, which is why they usually appear in italics or (parentheses) in the text.

...and Acts 15:11 mean !!:chuckle::chuckle:
It means just what it says - that the gentiles will be saved, in the same way the Jews were. Seems straightforward.

Jarrod
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Then...why Paul?

I guess the twelve couldn't do th' job, so Christ chose Paul to take up th' slack.
One of the twelve turned traitor and then killed himself, so there was a job opening. So... Paul. Apostle #12 in the place of Judas Iscariot.

I'm of the opinion that the 'drawing lots' for an apostleship in Acts was a mistake. The requirement for apostleship is a personal commission from Jesus, which Paul got and the other guy... not so much.

Jarrod
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
One of the twelve turned traitor and then killed himself, so there was a job opening. So... Paul. Apostle #12 in the place of Judas Iscariot.

I'm of the opinion that the 'drawing lots' for an apostleship in Acts was a mistake. The requirement for apostleship is a personal commission from Jesus, which Paul got and the other guy... not so much.

Jarrod

Paul was not qualified to be one of the twelve and was never considered to be by himself or by the twelve.

Matthias was qualified and the eleven had the authority to induct him with approval from GOD. No mistake.

Paul was chosen to present the mystery of 'the one new man', 'the
BOC, a new entity, distinct from national Israel which was in the process of falling. Christ appointed him from heaven as distinct from the twelve.

The twelve were appointed during Christ's earthly ministry to Israel and with Matthias will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes in the future restoration.
 

turbosixx

New member
If it's the same gospel but just aimed at the Gentile then why did Paul preach it to the Jew first, as your own cited verse clearly states?
If there are two gospels, did Paul preach one to the Jews and a different one to the Gentiles?

Further, there would be no way to preach the gospel that applied to the Jews only to the Gentiles without it having changed so either way you have a different message being preached.
Why does it need to be different? What do Jews and Gentiles need?
Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Further still, the question(s) no one has answered is, if its just a different audience then where's the need for Paul in the first place? The Twelve had already been told to go to the whole world and they did not do so - why?
Who says they didn't. Very little is mentioned in the bible about the travels of the 12 but history shows that they went to locations throughout the world and worked there locally. No need to send letters. Paul traveled.


The direct answer to your question is, the Covenant of Circumcision, or what I've been referring to as the Dispensation of Law, or the Dispensation of the Kingdom.

I see this as the root of the disagreement. What is need for change of law?


The plan was for Christ to return quickly, within a year or so (Luke 13:6-9) and to give Israel its kingdom. This is why it is commonly referred to as the dispensation of the Kingdom and why their gospel is often called the "Kingdom Gospel" and they, "Kingdom believers".(Note that Peter was given "the keys to the Kingdom"). And, if you'll recall in my previous post with the long quotation from chapter three of "The Plot", Peter's references to "the times of refreshing" and specifically to the prophet Samuel, make it clear that Peter was offering Israel their Kingdom (2 Samuel 7:12-16),
Yes, Peter was given the keys and was offering them the kingdom. The kingdom is spiritual and with the keys Peter let 3,000 in on that day.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Souls were added to the spiritual kingdom.

John 18:6 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

the requirement for which was that they corporately repent, which is what Acts 2:38 (the verse you quoted above) is about.
What makes you think it's corporately?
It's not the children of the flesh but the children of promise that is true Israel.
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Are you not a child of God?


The term 'Christ', as you know is 'Messiah', the anointed One, and in the mind of a first century Jew, the anointed Prophet, Priest and King. What is being offered here is not merely individual spiritual salvation but the return of Jesus as their promised Messiah and the beginning of Israel's promised Kingdom.
Yes, that's why they killed him. They wanted him to defeat the Romans and all their enemies but he came to fix the real problem. Sin.

Acts 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes, 3,000 repented and were converted on Pentecost and had their sins forgiven and received the Holy Spirit.
 

achduke

Active member
The plan was for Christ to return quickly, within a year or so (Luke 13:6-9) and to give Israel its kingdom. This is why it is commonly referred to as the dispensation of the Kingdom and why their gospel is often called the "Kingdom Gospel" and they, "Kingdom believers".

Hi Clete,

Where does it say he was going to return in a year or so? Are you not reading into the parable too much?

Luke 13:16-9 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Let us not forget a day is like a thousand years.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Hosea 6:2 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
 

achduke

Active member
That's exactly right. (well, almost exactly - circumcision was not optional for Abraham)

Doesn't change a thing.

No, under no circumstances will I make the slightest attempt to explain. You're not at all interested in explanations.

Was circumcision an option for Israel under Moses? If it was then why were they not physically circumcised while they walked with God after the Exodus before coming into the promised land?
 

turbosixx

New member
Turbosixx,

I don't think you're following Nick M's point. He stated it most clearly here...

I'm trying to understand his point but it appears he is making my point. The Gentiles were saved the same as the Jews, both from Peter's mouth.

Do you see? It's the same audience!

If nothing had changed then they all would have continued as they were but they didn't. Galatians 2 explicitly states that Paul went to the Gentiles (Paul makes it clear that his message was for everyone and made no distinction between Jew or Gentile) and the Twelve stayed in Jerusalem and ministered there. WHY OH WHY WOULD THEY HAVE DONE THAT IF NOTHING HAD CHANGED AND EVERYONE HAD THE SAME MESSAGE?

Here's why...

I Corinthians 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes, the gospel is for both audiences and once they obey they are neither Jew nor Gentile. Circumcision means nothing.

Peter preached the same gospel in Acts 2 to Jews and in Acts 10 to Cornelius. Paul preached the same gospel in Acts 13. It's the same.

What do Jews and Gentiles need? Forgiveness of sins.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What does that have to do with two gospels?

You said Paul claims Peter should be accursed. Paul is telling about what he did regarding Peter and his false gospel. Paul said after it let them be accursed. That is after Acts 15 that circumcision accepts Paul's gospel of faith alone.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Nice Neg Rep...

:AoO:


Then do it!

Scripture please.

Already done but....

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

The lost can't seem to wrap their head around it, even though Paul explicitly states not while circumcised for faith alone.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
:thumb:

Most modern translations make it clear that there was one gospel to two different groups of people.

(Gal 2:7) On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

If it is two different audiences, then why did Paul immediately break the Acts 15 agreement in Acts 17 and Acts 18 by preaching to the Jew first?
 
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