Homophobia

Huckleberry

New member
But if the "desire" is actually a bio-genetic inclination; one that we are born with and cannot deny or control, how is it that we should be held accountable for this desire as a "sin"? What kind of God infects us with a desire that He then condemns us for having? Who would sanely choose to believe in such a malicious deity?
Why aren't you answering my questions?
Because I reject the various false premises scattered around in there. I don't think God is responsible for anyone being a homosexual, don't think He infected anyone with a desire to sin at all and reject the wicked notion that He is malicious. So I have no answer to your question other than to reject the question as ludicrous. And, frankly, evil.

Now you answer my question. Can you defend your accusations against God?

If you accept the notion that homosexual desire is given us by God and that God declares that desire to be evil then you'll either have to plainly accuse Him of evil or explain how in the world He's not.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh,

and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,

is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:

but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Sin is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)
Homosexual acts are a transgression of the law (Lev. 18:22)
Homosexual acts are a sin
Jesus said that the desire, itself, is the sin. And that the spirit transcends and fulfills the 'law'. Are you saying that the desire is not a sin, but only acting against religious law is the sin? Because I don't think that's what Jesus preached.
 

Truster

New member
TRUSTER is confusing Homos with Child Molesters.

Child molesters have a very strong Desire for sexual relations

whereas homo men have a strong desire to be feminine.

There is no confusion here, but based on your post, I'd say you are in the thick of it.
 

WizardofOz

New member
Jesus said that the desire, itself, is the sin. And that the spirit transcends and fulfills the 'law'. Are you saying that the desire is not a sin, but only acting against religious law is the sin? Because I don't think that's what Jesus preached.

Both are. You seem to be splitting hairs here. Romans 3:23 pretty much sums it up succinctly.

Do you think homosexuality is sin, PureX? Would you tell your brother that homosexuality is OK and that he shouldn't turn away from sin?
 

PureX

Well-known member
Because I reject the various false premises scattered around in there. I don't think God is responsible for anyone being a homosexual, don't think He infected anyone with a desire to sin at all and reject the wicked notion that He is malicious. So I have no answer to your question other than to reject the question as ludicrous. And, frankly, evil.
Well, this was my original point …. the one you were so quick to insult me about …. that a lot of Christians are not willing to face these difficult questions, because in doing so, they will have to face their own self-righteous over-simplification of "sin", and perhaps give up their well-trodden habit of judging and condemning others for their "sins".

And here you are, also, denying the evidence of science and the witness of homosexuals, themselves, because you just can't face the questions that their genetic inclinations imply.
If you accept the notion that homosexual desire is given us by God and that God declares that desire to be evil then you'll either have to plainly accuse Him of evil or explain how in the world He's not.
I can easily explain how "He's" not.

The genetic inclination toward homosexual attraction is a part of the natural design of human existence. If we believe that God is the creator, sustainer, and author of that design, then God is "responsible" for a significant percentage of homosexual desire (not all, as clearly some of this desire is the result of cultural and experiential circumstance). This is a logical 'truth' that we can all see for ourselves if we are willing to look.

On the other hand, we have a religious book written by men who had no access to the scientific process, and a limited grasp of logic, who concluded for themselves that homosexuality was an "abomination" and said so in their religious writings.

I think the answer is clear, here: that as time has passed, we have come to recognize that homosexual desire is a part of God's plan as it is being expressed through the mechanics of existence, while the condemnation of it by ancient Hebrew writers was the result of a bias based on the limitations of their time, place, culture, and intellect.

That leaves us with the greater question of our human inclination to "sin" in general. Are ALL human inclinations bio-genetic, and therefor unavoidable "sins"? Are we still all being held accountable for them according to an irrationally malicious God? And I think the answer, here, is also quite clear: no, and no.

We are born with genetic inclinations, but we can learn to recognize them within us, and we can practice at diminishing their hold over our minds and hearts.

We are also socialized into some sinful desires and inclinations that we likewise can eventually learn to recognize and practice at diminishing their hold over our minds and hearts.

The "sin", then, is not in the inclination or desire itself, so much as it's in how we respond to it, internally. Are we trying to recognize our sinful desires for what they are, when they occur? Are we working at not allowing them to own our hearts and minds, and dictate our actions? Or are we just excusing or justifying them? Or worse, even reveling in them?

It's in how we deal with these inclinations, internally, that will determine our sinfulness, not in the fact that they exist in us. But that's something no one else can really judge, isn't it. We can't look at another person and know, really, how strong the God-given inclination to 'sin' is, in them, or how honestly and stridently they are trying to deal with it. So that the truth of the matter is, that we can't judge the sinfulness of others. Because we can't feel what they feel, or think what they think in reaction to it.

But there are a lot of Christians who don't like this fact of our reality. They WANT to stand in judgment of other people for their sins. They WANT to play God, and condemn people to hell for what they think is their unrighteousness. It makes them feel strong, and good, and glorious, to do so. And this is what's fueling their bigotry against homosexuals. And it's what's fueling their (your) persistent denial of the idea that God would 'infect' people with the inclination to sin, and then condemn them for reveling in that same inclination. Because that's a complexity that they don't want to face, as it eliminates their own imagined ability to pass judgment on others, and play God, themselves.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Do you think homosexuality is sin, PureX? Would you tell your brother that homosexuality is OK and that he shouldn't turn away from sin?
First of all, what is "homosexuality"? Is it an activity? Is it a desire? Is it a character trait?

And if it is a "sin", what exactly about it, makes it a sin?

The point of my questions, and of this discussion, is that I think a lot of us are hiding our willful ignorance and mean-spirited prejudices behind these kinds of vagaries. And some of these could be dispelled if we would just take the time and use our reason to clarify our own 'beliefs' (and motivations) on the subject.

I do not believe that a homosexual desire, in itself, is a sin. Partly because I do not believe that a homosexual desire, in itself, is a choice. I think it's a bio-genetic (and sometimes a social-sematic) inclination that's been 'built into' some of us by the mechanisms of human creation and interaction. And that being the case, I do not believe that homosexual activity, in itself, is a sin, either. I do, however, respect the fact that you or others may disagree with that based on your (misguided, I believe) interpretation and understanding of the Bible.

I believe that "sin" is spiritual, not biological, nor purely actual. I believe that sin is rooted in our willingness to satisfy our own lusts, desires, wants and needs regardless or even at the expense of those of others. "Sin" is the antithesis of love. Not 'love' as in romantic love, but love as in an honest concern for the well-being of another. Sin is a state of spiritually destructive selfishness. And the more we allow ourselves to exist in this state, the more self-destructive, and destructive to others we become. … The more we become the embodiment of 'sinfulness'.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
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The question is; are these inclinations still a "sin" if they are the product of a person's biology?

It's the answer to this question that many Christians don't want to face.
Fornication is a sin, regardless of my biological desire to commit it.

Jesus said that the desire, itself, is the sin. And that the spirit transcends and fulfills the 'law'. Are you saying that the desire is not a sin, but only acting against religious law is the sin? Because I don't think that's what Jesus preached.
When did Jesus say the desire was a sin? When He equated lust to adultery? If that is your argument then you misunderstand. Jesus was not stating that desire was sin, but that entertaining desire is sin.

When Jesus was fasting in the wilderness for forty [40] days I am sure He was hungry and desired to eat. And Satan tempted him to turn a stone to bread so He could eat. But Jesus did not sin.

And in the end even entertaining the desire is not enough to warrant legal punishment. In the cases of adultery and homosexuality the offenders were only guilty of crimes if they engaged in the physical act.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Jesus was not stating that desire was sin, but that entertaining desire is sin.
I agree with you on this. But it's not just entertaining desire, it's entertaining the desire at the expense of another. Thus, it is antithetical to love. And that's what makes it 'sin'. (Not that it breaks some religious law or other.)
And in the end even entertaining the desire is not enough to warrant legal punishment. In the cases of adultery and homosexuality the offenders were only guilty of crimes if they engaged in the physical act.
Sin is not crime, and crime is not sin. Sin is a spiritual state, while crimes are physical actions.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
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I agree with you on this. But it's not just entertaining desire, it's entertaining the desire at the expense of another. Thus, it is antithetical to love. And that's what makes it 'sin'. (Not that it breaks some religious law or other.)
Sin is not crime, and crime is not sin. Sin is a spiritual state, while crimes are physical actions.
How is lust entertaining the desire at the expense of another? The object most likely never has any idea such a thing is even taking place, except in the case of pornography, which is in essence consensual which opens to another discussion.

And while not all sins are crimes, some of them are [as it should be]. And all crimes should be sins; if something is not a sin it should not be a crime.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Have you ever looked at the various polls and studies where homosexuals of both genders are asked if they've ever engaged in sexual relations with the opposite sex, based on actual sexual attraction rather than some other convenience? It's rather overwhelming. Enough that you have to question just how many "true" homosexuals there are. Apparently, by your standard, it's extremely rare.

Cites? Before you can say anything about 'my standard' I'd need to read your source material honestly.

Me too. Aren't they?

Nowadays yes they are, and good for you in turn. :)

I don't see how you can be so sure without exploring the darkest depths of promiscuity. I rather advise against it, for the record, but I have no doubt that if you embraced perversion then this particular perversity would be explored sooner or later. I think the best you can honestly claim is that you would never be that perverse. And good for you. :up:

I can be as sure as I am in regarding having an interest in hacking myself in two with a rusty hacksaw. I'm strictly "butter side up" as the saying goes.

That said, no I don't believe homosexual attractions are typically chosen. I do believe it's possible to develop them but that's much like saying it's possible to develop an enjoyment of being branded with red hot pokers, considering how adaptable human beings are. Possible, but probably not too many people ever have.

Well, as above really. I don't think it's possible to 'develop' homosexual attractions as I think any such are innate. It would take some masochist to *enjoy* being branded by a red hot iron by the same token...
 

Truster

New member
I agree with you on this. But it's not just entertaining desire, it's entertaining the desire at the expense of another. Thus, it is antithetical to love. And that's what makes it 'sin'. (Not that it breaks some religious law or other.)
Sin is not crime, and crime is not sin. Sin is a spiritual state, while crimes are physical actions.

Crime is sin. The word is used as such in scripture. I won't tell you where you'll need to find it.

One thing this does prove is you don't search the scriptures before you open your mouth.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
There was an article about how disgusting homophobic's are in our local paper today. I was a little upset about this so I added this comment. I fully expect it to be deleted.

''Homophobia is a fear of homosexuals and it can't be helped. I'm homophobic and I can honestly say it is not through choice...its the way I am and I would ask people to accept me the way I am''.

Is this not a reasonable request?

I understand not agreeing with homosexuality - but taunting them isn't exactly Christian behavior. It doesn't invite discussion - it drives a wedge between you and them.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
I understand not agreeing with homosexuality - but taunting them isn't exactly Christian behavior. It doesn't invite discussion - it drives a wedge between you and them.
"Answer a fool according to his folly..."
 

Truster

New member
I understand not agreeing with homosexuality - but taunting them isn't exactly Christian behavior. It doesn't invite discussion - it drives a wedge between you and them.

Why would I want a discussion with a pervert when I admit to being homophobic?
 

PureX

Well-known member
Why would I want a discussion with a pervert when I admit to being homophobic?
The term "homophobe" is just a clinical term for sexually oriented bigotry. So the question to you is; do you WANT to be a bigot? Are you proud of your bigotry? Or do you believe it's a personal flaw (or a sin) that you would like to address and change, if you could. Because if you are proud of your sexual bigotry, then you should stay away from homosexuals lest your pride and prejudice regarding these people cause you to do harm to them. But if you believe that your sexual bigotry is a shortcoming on your part, then one of the best ways of overcoming it would be to interact socially with some homosexual people so that you can learn to become more comfortable about them, and see that they are just people, the same as you.
 

Truster

New member
The term "homophobe" is just a clinical term for sexually oriented bigotry. So the question to you is; do you WANT to be a bigot? Are you proud of your bigotry? Or do you believe it's a personal flaw (or a sin) that you would like to address and change, if you could. Because if you are proud of your sexual bigotry, then you should stay away from homosexuals lest your pride and prejudice regarding these people cause you to do harm to them. But if you believe that your sexual bigotry is a shortcoming on your part, then one of the best ways of overcoming it would be to interact socially with some homosexual people so that you can learn to become more comfortable about them, and see that they are just people, the same as you.

Try reading the OP.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Crime is sin. The word is used as such in scripture. I won't tell you where you'll need to find it.

One thing this does prove is you don't search the scriptures before you open your mouth.
I don't idolize religious texts as if God wrote them, no. And even if I did, I would not presume that my interpretation of them is absolute just because I pretend that God wrote the words I'm interpreting.

Sin is not the breaking of religious or civil laws. If you don't understand why that is, you don't understand the fundamental principal of Jesus' teaching: that the Spirit transcends the law, and that the laws are only for those (like you) who don't recognize the transcendent spirit of God that dwells within you, and that will guide you in all things if you will allow it.
 

Truster

New member
I don't idolize religious texts as if God wrote them, no. And even if I did, I would not presume that my interpretation of them is absolute just because I pretend that God wrote the words I'm interpreting.

Sin is not the breaking of religious or civil laws. If you don't understand why that is, you don't understand the fundamental principal of Jesus' teaching: that the Spirit transcends the law, and that the laws are only for those (like you) who don't recognize the transcendent spirit of God that dwells within you, and that will guide you in all things if you will allow it.

New Age hocus pocus.
 

PureX

Well-known member
New Age hocus pocus.
You're completely out of any reasoned or intelligent responses, aren't you. You're down to this, now. You've really got nothing else to offer.

And yet you still have to keep "defending" yourself. How pathetic.
 
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