ECT Hades / The Grave

Arthur Brain

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People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone 300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 75, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Martha Stewart expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the moaning, shrieking, yelping, howling, gnashing teeth, and the constant complaining. I can only imagine how annoying it must be in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.
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Hmm, what could a sadistic entity do to top "eternal misery" of the like you describe? Make things even more unbearable? But hey, if a "loving" one does it?

I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.
 

ok doser

Well-known member
Hmm, what could a sadistic entity do to top "eternal misery" of the like you describe? Make things even more unbearable? But hey, if a "loving" one does it?

I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.

wow

you're nicer than God

yay you
 

Freedm

New member
no

you are mistaken

heaven is not beside hell , Abraham's side was.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,

"Abraham's side"? What is this now? Is this some other place that people go to when they're not quite worthy of heaven? And why is it right next to hell? Please explain what you mean by this.
 

WeberHome

New member
Re: Hades / The Grave

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wow [he's] nicer than God

Are humans more merciful than God? Yes, they are because humans don't have to always go by the book.

For example; former US President Richard Nixon deserved prison for certain aspects of his conduct while in public office, but his successor, former US Vice President Gerald Ford, arbitrarily pardoned him.

God pardons people too, but never arbitrarily. Justice has to be adequately satisfied first before He can let people walk.



I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.

You would not hesitate to vigorously stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place were they to become a menace; e.g. fleas, ants, hornets, horse flies, mosquitoes, spiders, wolves, scorpions, bears, rattlesnakes, termites, etc.

The critters, not knowing any better, would perceive your conduct as cruel and tyrannical; whereas you would justify your conduct as self defense. If the critters had an IQ equal to yours, they would readily see that reducing their numbers is the wise thing to do, and although they may not like what you do to them, in the end they would have to agree that their eradication is for the greater good.

FAQ: But why hell? It's so extreme. Why not just exterminate people like insects and get it over with instead of forever baking them in an oven and/or simmering them in a lake of brimstone?

A: I am convinced that if someone bright enough, and capable enough, to invent and construct an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life matter and energy, can think of no other way to adequately satisfy justice other than Jesus' crucifixion, then there's just simply no other viable option; because if there was another option besides Jesus' crucifixion, then an IQ such as God's would've thought of it by now.
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Arthur Brain

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Are humans more merciful than God? Yes, they are because humans don't have to always go by the book.

For example; former US President Richard Nixon deserved prison for certain aspects of his conduct while in public office, but his successor, former US Vice President Gerald Ford, arbitrarily pardoned him.

God pardons people too, but never arbitrarily. Justice has to be adequately satisfied first before He can let people walk.





You would not hesitate to vigorously stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place were they to become a menace; e.g. fleas, ants, hornets, horse flies, mosquitoes, spiders, wolves, scorpions, bears, rattlesnakes, termites, etc.

The critters, not knowing any better, would perceive your conduct as cruel and tyrannical; whereas you would justify your conduct as self defense. If the critters had an IQ equal to yours, they would readily see that reducing their numbers is the wise thing to do, and although they may not like what you do to them, in the end they would have to agree that their eradication is for the greater good.

FAQ: But why hell? It's so extreme. Why not just exterminate people like insects and get it over with instead of forever baking them in an oven and/or simmering them in a lake of brimstone?

A: I am convinced that if someone bright enough, and capable enough, to invent and construct an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life matter and energy, can think of no other way to adequately satisfy justice other than Jesus' crucifixion, then there's just simply no other viable option; because if there was another option besides Jesus' crucifixion, then an IQ such as God's would've thought of it by now.
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look at your own post and think on it awhile. What the heck type of "god" are you portraying? A one that creates life whereby there's no other option but to have beings interminably suffer if they don't "get it right" in a handful of years? Would "love" have that as part of the plan from the outset?
 

WeberHome

New member
Re: Hades / The Grave

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Would "love" have that as part of the plan from the outset?

The Greek verb for "love" in the passage below is impersonal. The grammar indicates that God is sympathetic, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that He actually likes the objects of His sympathy.

"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)

The Greek verb for the love that God feels for his son is quite a bit different. It's a personal kind love consisting of the elements of affection and fondness.

"For the Father loves the Son and shows him all He does." (John 5:20)

So when God threw His son to the wolves for mankind's sake, it was not an easy thing for Him to do. In my opinion, people who snub that degree of generosity not only deserve hell, but hell is too good for them.

NOTE: The human mind is produced by a three-pound lump of flabby organic tissue, and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes. Plus, 60% of it is fat.

The IQ of humanity's fatty, flabby organic mind isn't near sufficient enough to comprehend either the reasoning, or the motives, of a mind that's bright enough to invent and create an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.

Humanity's mind is the mind of a paramecium in comparison to its creator's mind. Relative to His, the human mind is practically mindless. i.e. it scarcely has any IQ at all; so it's no surprise that the human mind cannot comprehend why a divine being reputed for kindness would set out to create human life while knowing full well in advance that a percentage of it would end up in terrible suffering.

You're angry with God. I can't say as I blame you. My first reaction upon hearing that Jesus is coming back some day to rule the world was anger because the news frightened me, and I don't like my buttons pushed like that.

Why was I frightened? Because I instinctively knew that were I called on the carpet, the interview would not go well for me because I have a lot to answer for; and some of it is ugly, inhumane, uncivil, and shameful.
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Arthur Brain

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The Greek verb for "love" in the passage below is impersonal. The grammar indicates that God is sympathetic, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that He actually likes the objects of His sympathy.

"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)

The Greek verb for the love that God feels for his son is quite a bit different. It's a personal kind love consisting of the elements of affection and fondness.

"For the Father loves the Son and shows him all He does." (John 5:20)


The Biblical definition of love is as descriptive and eloquent as it gets. The diametric opposite of what you put forward.

So when God threw His son to the wolves for mankind's sake, it was not an easy thing for Him to do. In my opinion, people who snub that degree of generosity not only deserve hell, but hell is too good for them.

Case in point right here. Not only have you gone into sickening detail as to what you surmise "Hell" comprises of, you actually think that's still too "good" for your fallible flesh and blood neighbour and that they should somehow suffer worse?! Well, there's no love in that is there?

NOTE: The human mind is produced by a three-pound lump of flabby organic tissue, and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes. Plus, 60% of it is fat.

The IQ of humanity's fatty, flabby organic mind isn't near sufficient enough to comprehend either the reasoning, or the motives, of a mind that's bright enough to invent and create an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.

Humanity's mind is the mind of a paramecium in comparison to its creator's mind. Relative to His, the human mind is practically mindless. i.e. it scarcely has any IQ at all; so it's no surprise that the human mind cannot comprehend why a divine being reputed for kindness would set out to create human life while knowing full well in advance that a percentage of it would end up in terrible suffering.

You're angry with God. I can't say as I blame you. My first reaction upon hearing that Jesus is coming back some day to rule the world was anger because the news frightened me, and I don't like my buttons pushed like that.

Why was I frightened? Because I instinctively knew that were I called on the carpet, the interview would not go well for me because I have a lot to answer for; and some of it is ugly, inhumane, uncivil, and shameful.
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Angry at God? Why? I don't go along with your beliefs as they're just part of a maelstrom of religious doctrine where Christianity in the main doesn't have any real clarity just among those who ascribe to the notion of eternal suffering itself. You talk about being inhumane and ugly, well just look at your above with regards to what you think other people deserve because how you could be any less loving than that?
 

Freedm

New member
FAQ: But why hell? It's so extreme. Why not just exterminate people like insects and get it over with instead of forever baking them in an oven and/or simmering them in a lake of brimstone?
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Little known fact: early Christians believed in the eventual salvation of every person. ie. the lake of fire was never thought to be a place of eternal suffering. Now why would they believe that?
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Little known fact: early Christians believed in the eventual salvation of every person. ie. the lake of fire was never thought to be a place of eternal suffering. Now why would they believe that?

no

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
 

WeberHome

New member
Re: Hades / The Grave

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early Christians believed in the eventual salvation of every person. ie. the lake of fire was never thought to be a place of eternal suffering. Now why would they believe that?

Heretics were active in Christianity almost right away; some even while the apostles were still here; e.g. Gal 1:6-9, 1Tim 1:3-4, 2Tim 2:15-18, 1John 2:18-19, and Jud 1:17-19.
_
 

Freedm

New member
no

it is the place of the dead before the cross

Is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man your only source for this theory of yours? Or do you have other scripture that talks about this "place of the dead before the cross".
 

Freedm

New member
no

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

The word translated as "everlasting" does not actually mean everlasting. The word in the original Greek manuscripts is "aiōnion" which means "agelong". It does not mean everlasting. Bad translation.
 

iamaberean

New member
no

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
For those people that are not the devil's children it will just be dead and in a grave.

There are real live children of the devil here today!
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Little known fact:
Fact? Aren't you presumptuous.

Little known? All gnostics believed this way perverting the Christian message: "Respectable gentleman, allow me to tell you that any religious type of inferno is exclusively symbolic."
 

Freedm

New member
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Heretics were active in Christianity almost right away; some even while the apostles were still here; e.g. Gal 1:6-9, 1Tim 1:3-4, 2Tim 2:15-18, 1John 2:18-19, and Jud 1:17-19.
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So you believe that universalism is heretical? Would it surprise you then to find scripture that supports universalism?
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man your only source for this theory of yours? Or do you have other scripture that talks about this "place of the dead before the cross".

do you think Jesus lied about what happened
to Lazarus and the rich man ?
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The word translated as "everlasting" does not actually mean everlasting. The word in the original Greek manuscripts is "aiōnion" which means "agelong". It does not mean everlasting. Bad translation.


so now you are saying no everlasting life for Christians , your theology is full of lies .


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
 
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