God's Exhaustive Foreknowledge

[Right Divider]

I've created this thread as a place for those that believe God has "exhaustive foreknowledge of every single human action, even before those people are even born" to actually PROVE that FROM SCRIPTURE.

Note that this is a VERY HIGH BAR to achieve and NOBODY has made even a reasonable attempt to do that. Also note that it only takes ONE COUNTER-EXAMPLE to disprove that concept. And that there are MANY counter-examples in scripture (like Gen 22:12).

 

[way 2 go]

its an impossibly high bar to prove to an open theist ,
i mean open theist don't even believe God has that
"exhaustive knowledge of every single human action"
today let alone future

open theist say God lost track of Adam & Eve ,
no God did not lose track of Adam & Eve
"where are you" was a rhetorical question and Adam's answer was why not where
as was the "have you eaten of the tree" and
Like when God asked Cain where is Able a rhetorical question

open theist response , not all God's question are rhetorical. #6
duh
but that one is
(Jeremiah 23:24) Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? said the LORD.


how much scripture does an open theist have to deny that God knew sodom was evil
(Genesis 13:13) But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

what does God presently know & understand :

(Psalms 147:4-5)
[4] He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.

[5] Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.


(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.


(Proverbs 15:11) Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?


(Proverbs 5:21) For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and He watches all his paths.


(Romans 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


(Jeremiah 16:17) For my eyes are on all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from my eyes.

(Jeremiah 23:24) Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? said the LORD.

(Psalms 90:8) You have set our iniquities before you, our secret sins in the light of your countenance.

(Matthew 12:36) But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Right Divider]

its an impossibly high bar to prove to an open theist ,

That's because we don't allow human philosophy to drive our understanding of scripture. We let the scripture speak for itself.

i mean open theist don't even believe God has that
"exhaustive knowledge of every single human action"
today let alone future

You seem to think that God must be forced to observe every moment of every sexual assault and r*pe that occurs on the earth.

open theist say God lost track of Adam & Eve ,
no God did not lose track of Adam & Eve
"where are you" was a rhetorical question and Adam's answer was why not where
as was the "have you eaten of the tree" and
Like when God asked Cain where is Able a rhetorical question

Even then, a couple of rhetorical questions does not cancel all of the rest of scripture.

open theist response , not all God's question are rhetorical. #6
duh

What is the problem with that? It's simply a true statement.

but that one is
(Jeremiah 23:24) Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? said the LORD.

Again, that is talking about the PRESENT time and not all of your supposed "future history". That does NOT give you ANY support for your FALSE premise.

how much scripture does an open theist have to deny that God knew sodom was evil
(Genesis 13:13) But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

That was NOT talking about the FUTURE! It's talking about things PAST!

what does God presently know & understand :

(Psalms 147:4-5)
[4] He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.

In the PRESENT.

[5] Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

In the PRESENT.

(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

In the PRESENT.

(Proverbs 15:11) Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

In the PRESENT.

(Proverbs 5:21) For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and He watches all his paths.

In the PRESENT.

(Romans 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

All of the "secrets of men" that He will judge will be IN THE PAST.
God PLANNING a future judgement of PAST EVENTS does NOT support your case.

(Jeremiah 16:17) For my eyes are on all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from my eyes.

Again... that says NOTHING about the FUTURE!

(Jeremiah 23:24) Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? said the LORD.

In the PRESENT.

(Psalms 90:8) You have set our iniquities before you, our secret sins in the light of your countenance.

"Secret sins" in the PAST and NOT THE FUTURE.

(Matthew 12:36) But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The judgement is in the future, but the things judged are FROM THE PAST.

So again I say: NOBODY has made any attempt to PROVE that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE THAT EVERY SINGLE HUMAN WILL MAKE IN THE FUTURE.

You have FAILED MISERABLY.

 

[way 2 go]

That's because we don't allow human philosophy to drive our understanding of scripture. We let the scripture speak for itself.

really ? theology via logic puzzle
T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

You seem to think that God must be forced to observe every moment of every sexual assault and r*pe that occurs on the earth.

so you admit I'm right
open theist don't even believe God has that
"exhaustive knowledge of every single human action"
today

let alone future

Even then, a couple of rhetorical questions does not cancel all of the rest of scripture.

What is the problem with that? It's simply a true statement.

Again, that is talking about the PRESENT time and not all of your supposed "future history". That does NOT give you ANY support for your FALSE premise.

That was NOT talking about the FUTURE! It's talking about things PAST!

In the PRESENT.

In the PRESENT.

In the PRESENT.

In the PRESENT.

In the PRESENT.

All of the "secrets of men" that He will judge will be IN THE PAST.
God PLANNING a future judgement of PAST EVENTS does NOT support your case.

Again... that says NOTHING about the FUTURE!

In the PRESENT.

"Secret sins" in the PAST and NOT THE FUTURE.

The judgement is in the future, but the things judged are FROM THE PAST.

So again I say: NOBODY has made any attempt to PROVE that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE THAT EVERY SINGLE HUMAN WILL MAKE IN THE FUTURE.

You have FAILED MISERABLY.

what does God presently know & understand that open theist deny :

(Psalms 147:4-5)
[4] He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.

[5] Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.



(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.



(Proverbs 15:11) Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?



(Proverbs 5:21) For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and He watches all his paths.



(Romans 2:16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



(Jeremiah 16:17) For my eyes are on all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from my eyes.


(Jeremiah 23:24) Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? said the LORD.


(Psalms 90:8) You have set our iniquities before you, our secret sins in the light of your countenance.


(Matthew 12:36) But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Right Divider]

really ? theology via logic puzzle

Logic is not a puzzle... it's how we reason.

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

Are you have having a problem following that logic?

But... that is IRRELEVANT to this thread. AGAIN, you make NO attempt to support your idea with any actual ARGUMENT.

so you admit I'm right

Are you trying to act stupid or does it just come naturally for you?

Stop REPEATING your NON-ARGUMENT and get on topic.

So again I say: NOBODY has made any attempt to PROVE that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE THAT EVERY SINGLE HUMAN WILL MAKE IN THE FUTURE.

You have... once again... FAILED MISERABLY.

P.S. The TOPIC of this thread is KNOWLEDGE OF EVERY FUTURE CHOICE.

 

[JudgeRightly]

that is IRRELEVANT to this thread

Actually, it completely falsifies his position.

He's claiming that free will exists and God knows everything infallibly.

That logical sequence (which Clete and myself have used previously against settled view-ers) shows how free will and EDF are comoletely incompatible.

 

[JudgeRightly]

really ? theology via logic puzzle
T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

It's not a puzzle.

If you can't even understand basic reasoning, then you have no hope of establishing your beliefs as correct, let alone convincing anyone of them.

I strongly recommend you go take logic and reasoning 101 course, because you clearly aren't capable of using either on TOL.

 

[JudgeRightly]

open theist don't even believe God has that
"exhaustive knowledge of every single human action"
today

let alone future

Why is this a problem?

 

[Right Divider]

Actually, it completely falsifies his position.

He's claiming that free will exists and God knows everything infallibly.

That logical sequence (which Clete and myself have used previously against settled view-ers) shows how free will and EDF are comoletely incompatible.

OK, irrelevant was the wrong word. But I've focused on his claims about the future. I probably should have said diversion or distraction.