Nang
TOL Subscriber
Indeed.
And only God CAN do that.
Changing the heart of man to believe, is a divine transference of that man from death to life; from darkness to light. Acts 26:17-18
No man can work such a miracle for himself.
ECT Get Off The Fence!
- Thread starter Doom
- Start date
Indeed.
And only God CAN do that.
Changing the heart of man to believe, is a divine transference of that man from death to life; from darkness to light. Acts 26:17-18
No man can work such a miracle for himself.
By teaching us that we are sinners in need of the Savior, it leads us to Christ.
In-com-plete.
John 12
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Are you a Baptist? so salvation is not available for all non Baptists ?
Are you a Christian? so salvation it not available for all non Christians?
do you have completely accurate knowledge of all scripture? so salvation is not available to anyone but you?
You are one reason I started the thread about "you are not a Christian if you believe ____ or don't believe ____" insert your fetish doctrine.
We receive salvation by meeting the requirements of Romans 10:9-10, not by having 100% accurate knowledge, wisdom and understanding of every truth in God's word.
Romans 10:9-10 is how people receive salvation, not because they have your perfect knowledge of all scriptural doctrines
nikolai_42
Well-known member
No, those who receive Him will certainly be, thats the context of all scripture.[/QUOTE]
So, if....
1. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him
AND
2. All men will be drawn to Christ
AND
3. All that comes to Him will be raised up on the last day
How can you be consistent in saying "all" means literally everyone in some cases unless you make all 3 of them say that (and become a universalist)?
Why would someone accept Christ naturally if their heart is deceitful and wicked? Unless that answer is "The Holy Spirit did some work on that heart first..." (or something to that affect), it has to be because of the individual's own willful choice (since we know their natural choice is against God). Did they just have to have their eyes opened to their sinfulness or do they need an inclination to seek God?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If you go up to someone and say "You're a wicked sinner" or even start to list all the awful things they did, would they consider that "wooing"? More to the point, what is their natural reaction going to be?
StP said:
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Note the order of things.
John 12
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
Romans 10
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
The Lord Jesus Christ is crucified and draws all. The word of truth is preached and when you hear you are dealt a measure of faith. Those that believe are saved.
God says so. You just think you are righteous on your own. You like most, choose the wide path to destruction. You can not get on your knees and admit guilt.
What people confess tells us what they believe in their heart. Like those that say the earth was not made in six days. Or that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God. We know they reject him.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
And what enables that admission?
Christ said clearly if He be lifted, will draw all men, check
yes, convicted of their sin and granted a measure of faith that they extend or retain in rejection of the truth.
yes, all who receive Christ are saved. Romans 10:9-10
Im not understanding what you arent getting - you keep skipping completely that many will reject Christ and not be among those saved.
Because the Spirit convicted them of sin, and they chose His way instead of their own.
No one has denied that the Spirit acts first. We deny that we are saved before we come to Christ, being convicted of sin, isnt the same thing as being saved. You skip that we can reject the truth once we know it.
People can KNOW they are wrong, and not care, hence those who reject the offer of salvation.
Doom
New member
I quote Paul, and you disagree with him. Not surprised.
Paul says that the Holy Spirit is given after first hearing, then believing.
Paul says that men hear those who have preached the gospel. And all men are without excuse...
Rom 10:17-18 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
Psalm 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Paul also taught that apart from the quickening of the Holy Spirit, no man can believe the gospel. It is just foolishness to him. I Corinthians 2:10-16
This teaching MUST be factored in . . .
The heart, mind, and will of any sinner must be changed by the Holy Spirit changing the heart, mind, and will through His resurrecting power. (Regeneration)
The first event in the order of conversion to faith is being born again from above. John 3:3
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So, if....
1. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him
AND
2. All men will be drawn to Christ
AND
3. All that comes to Him will be raised up on the last day
How can you be consistent in saying "all" means literally everyone in some cases unless you make all 3 of them say that (and become a universalist)?
Why would someone accept Christ naturally if their heart is deceitful and wicked? Unless that answer is "The Holy Spirit did some work on that heart first..." (or something to that affect), it has to be because of the individual's own willful choice (since we know their natural choice is against God). Did they just have to have their eyes opened to their sinfulness or do they need an inclination to seek God?[/QUOTE]
Here's where I see the disconnect. You seemed to agree that only those that are saved are raised up on the last day (and this verse you quoted appears to me to further support that). But you were clear in wanting to mandate that "all" had to mean literally "all men". What scriptural reason do you have for now limiting it when the other references to drawing seem to be partners with this one?
When Jesus said that those who don't believe are condemned already, I take that to confirm that condemnation is the default position. It is the natural state. So rejection of Christ simply means no change in the status quo.
If a man's heart is deceitful and wicked, no matter what a man says he "chooses", that heart has to be changed before that man can choose a different way. No man every yet hated his own flesh - no man chooses against himself (naturally). He preserves himself (naturally). The real "choice" here is already made in the sense that the heart is self-tending (unless first changed).
I recall a Friends' episode (didn't care for the show myself but my wife used to watch it...) in which a couple of the characters tried to do a truly selfless act. They couldn't. Maybe not a great theological point, but that (put someone crudely) is why man cannot rest on his own works to (in any sense) "choose Christ". It's not that God forces him to say the right words, but He changes the heart first that the man might follow God. No man can do that unless God does the work first.
musterion
Well-known member
Doom,
Good thread and I'm on board with the intent but please try not to use the term "limited atonement" without clarifying what it really means, as many don't fully get it. To use the enemy's terminology cedes ground to the enemy.
"Limited atonement" means, bluntly, the blood of Christ was spilled only for a few; that He died only for a few; that the cross is of use only to a few. It means that the vast majority of mankind is utterly and forever without hope and all by the sovereign purpose and design of "God."
Put it in those terms and eyebrows will raise that otherwise might not.
Just a friendly suggestion from an ex-semi-Calvinoid.
Good thread and I'm on board with the intent but please try not to use the term "limited atonement" without clarifying what it really means, as many don't fully get it. To use the enemy's terminology cedes ground to the enemy.
"Limited atonement" means, bluntly, the blood of Christ was spilled only for a few; that He died only for a few; that the cross is of use only to a few. It means that the vast majority of mankind is utterly and forever without hope and all by the sovereign purpose and design of "God."
Put it in those terms and eyebrows will raise that otherwise might not.
Just a friendly suggestion from an ex-semi-Calvinoid.
Doom
New member
You are correct. I apologize for the oversight.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
musterion
Well-known member
Condemning people for something you made them do but pretending they did it all themselves is not justice. It's sin. Defending it is idolatry. Attributing it to the God of the Bible is blasphemy.
Already responded and you keep ignoring that people can reject Christ.
The disconnect is yours, you refuse to acknowledge that we can say no to the offer of salvation, and no that does not in any way limit God, since He is who granted us the ability to say no.
No one has denied that Christ via His Spirit draws people to Christ and that that has precedes any expression of faith. God still does all the leading and awakening us to truth.
Ultimately those who do say no, will still bend their knee, acknowledge that He is God and then be separated from Him forever just like they said they wanted when they rejected Him. They get away with nothing.