Nang
TOL Subscriber
Regeneration precedes faith . . .
ECT Get Off The Fence!
- Thread starter Doom
- Start date
Regeneration precedes faith . . .
Doom
New member
Seriously dude, you are brain dead, just like you are to the gospel. That was spoken to His disciples before the Holy Spirit had given life to the Body of Christ. You know, THOSE who actually believe that Jesus died for OUR (all men's) sins, and received His life.
You can read what Paul said in Ephesians and accept it or reject it. It appears you have chosen the latter.
You do not accept the gospel, because you refuse to believe the gospel. Unless you accept the truth that Jesus died for OUR (all men's) sins, you cannot be saved.
Doom
New member
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Sinners cannot hear the gospel truth until the Spirit gives them new ears to hear. I Corinthisns 2:14
Doom
New member
It has been made quite clear in this thread that those who believe in a limited / definite atonement do not believe the gospel by which men are saved.
To encourage, endorse, support, or call those of reformed theology, covenant theology, or Calvinism you "brothers or sisters in Christ is to not only do them a great disservice, but is to hate all those who might hear their false message and believe it.
To encourage, endorse, support, or call those of reformed theology, covenant theology, or Calvinism you "brothers or sisters in Christ is to not only do them a great disservice, but is to hate all those who might hear their false message and believe it.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Salvation is not "offered. "
Salvation was purchased by Jesus at the cost of His life's blood.
I Peter 1:18-23
nikolai_42
Well-known member
As any man not quickened by the Holy Spirit would do.
As I understand it, the Calvinist doesn't deny that man is free in some sense. He is not a robot, but he is fallen, lost, bound by sin and Satan's deception. But because of that utter fallenness, man is simply incapable of doing anything to save himself - in fact, he naturally hates God, doesn't seek after God and is deceived at heart if he thinks that he naturally has some inclination to Him.
So when Paul - or any other preacher - preaches the gospel, the message preached is for the benefit of spiritual warfare. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood...men who are deceived (which Calvinists say is the natural state) are not all of a sudden going to say "Oh, wow...I didn't realize all that!" because a preacher explains the truth. They are enlightened because the Word itself is effectual (not their own inherent capacity to grasp or not).
The purpose of the church is to make known - to those powers and principalities - the manifold wisdom of God :
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Ephesians 3:6-11
In the very context of salvation and the gospel going to the Gentiles, Paul is saying that he isn't there just to "get people saved" but rather that the message preached does so to men AND spiritual powers that the Word may have ITS work accomplished - not dependent on inherent ability of man. God's church and its success is not dependent on whether or not someone decides to believe or not. And since evangelism is part of the declaration of the wisdom of God, should we say that the will of man determines the success of spiritual warfare?
Made up-no scripture says that, as you winged this "that covenant," just spammed it from your authority-your SOF.
Made up term, as usual.
The Holy Spirit is in the world now - doing what Christ said He would do:
John 16:8 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me
Did Christ lie when He said the Spirit would convict the world of sin?
Can men reject Christ? Sure, He said so Himself.
Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
What do you think that verse is saying? I don't see Him barging His way in and dragging them to Him there.
God woos all of us, just like He said via the Spirit, but He doesnt force us to respond.
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Did Jesus lie? Is He teasing us? Doesnt mean what He said?
elohiym
Well-known member
I disagree. Consider that Christ changed the law when he changed the priesthood (Heb 7:12), he abrogated the handwriting or ordinances against us (Col 2:14 - the laws that were not good and we could not live in per Ezekiel 20:25), and He replaced the temple. It's not possible for men to be under laws that no longer exist or part of a temple system that no longer exists. Perhaps you meant something different.
I agree that only grace frees sinners, but see them being freed from the bondage to sin generally, not being freed from condemnation for breaking laws under an old covenant. I disagree that grace requires legal satisfaction because I was dead in sin when God forgave me.
I will continue to try and convince you they are not because I love you, sister.
:e4e:
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I believe the gospel is the power of God...not dependent on man's innate ability to believe (or not).
If the wisdom you have is truly from above, why do you have such names for those who disagree with you? There seems to be a cadre of those that believe peppering their posts with insults somehow makes them credible....you're certainly not the worst I've seen (and I am not on often enough to get a good sample from every subforum) and you have treated me fairly well - but Nang seems to be the object of quite a bit of vitriol....
nikolai_42
Well-known member
No, but do we necessarily know the difference between conviction and drawing? Not externally we don't.
He also said that no one can come to Him except the Father draws Him AND that those who don't believe are ALREADY condemned .
Yep. And this only supports what I was saying about the purpose of the church. Notice Jesus is talking to Jerusalem as preventing Him from gathering "your children". It wasn't the children who "would not" but rather "you" ("Jerusalem"). Something more than just a man's will is involved here.
No. But notice also that this was said to the church at Laodicea. Not unbelievers at Laodicea.
A response here isn't a reasoned/willed reply. A response is simply an indication of what is naturally there. A reasoned reply of a liar (for example) would be to recognize what is being asked and formulate an acceptable answer. The response seems good, but at heart, the liar is still a liar. That's why God said He would have to take out a heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh (and cause you to walk in my statutes). The ground work has to be done by God irrespective of the sinner's will - because otherwise the sinner could say that he had something in him that God could use to work good. Instead, God does it from the ground up with Christ as the foundation.
Note - I'm not denying that man can have a willful reply to God, but what is critical is not what that man willfully says to God but rather what the heart of the man is like. And if it is necessary for someone to have a good heart before God will receive him...who could be saved? No one - unless God does the (ground)work first.
elohiym
Well-known member
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
How does David's prayer fit with what you are claiming?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
As I see it, the man who has the Holy Spirit has been given that new heart and new spirit and wants to please God. Since he isn't perfect (but a man after God's own heart), David is simply expressing the desire that comes from the heart of a regenerate man.
I know there are some that will say that this was a different situation since the Holy Spirit hadn't yet been given. I don't buy that. I believe God was still at work in the lives of individuals from the very beginning of time. There may be a difference in the upon/in receipt of the Holy Spirit, but I don't see that as a major factor in how God works in the hearts of men (in terms of this debate, that is).
Who denys the Spirit convicts us of sin first? Your problem is you deny that He does it with us all. Christ said if I be lifted up, will draw all men to myself, that drawing is the Spirit conviction of sin, to lead us to the cross, but He doesn't force us to receive Him.
Do you deny Christ draws all men to Himself like He said?
A covenant/agreement is not synonymous with "law."
Genesis 9:12-17 KJV
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you...a covenant between me and the earth...And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh...that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
Naggie: animals were bound to obey any law on penalty of death!!!!!!!
Clueless-that is what Clavinism/Calvinism does to you-fried brains.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Holy Spirit has always been in the world. He is also Creator of the world. Genesis 1:2
Of course not. But the "world" refers to all the nations in the world. All races of men.
However, there is no evidence that God has ever saved an entire nation, let alone all nations. God has promised to save men "out of" all the nations; a remnant out of all of humity, and that promise is kept. See Revelation 5:9 and 7:9.
By nature, all men reject and resist God and His Truth. That is why regeneration of the human heart must occur before any man can believe unto salvation.
Jesus Christ is instructing his visible church, which is mixed with tares and unbelievers. It is spiritual exhortation given to those who profess His name, and give lip service, but are not truly His.
I hear this all the time, but it is unbiblical. Sinners are "drawn" to Jesus; not "wooed." Big difference. The former is the sovereign action of God; the latter leaves coming to Christ up to human choice.
Jesus Christ gave His disciples answer to why not all who heard His sermon, believed His revelation He would be lifted up in death for sins. Read verses 37-41 and see Jesus quoted the prophet Isaiah, who had asked the same question of God, and see God's answer. It is that God alone determines who will believe or not. God chooses whom He will draw to faith in His Son, or not. It is not a matter of human choice.
So what did Jesus mean when He claimed He would draw all (peoples) to Himself?
That question is answered in verses 20-22. Greeks had come to hear the message of Jesus, so His message that follows, was inclusive of their presence. When Jesus was lifted up in death on the cross, He purposed to die for Gentiles ("Greeks") as well as Jews.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Not at all. Though some argue that that "all" means only all kinds of men. The second half of the verse that has the Father drawing has all those who are drawn being raised up on the last day. Are you saying that every single man is in view when Jesus says this? If that's the case, why not just say that every man will be raised on the last day? And further, if you look at Jesus' exchange with the Pharisees in John 5 (the chapter before the "drawing" statement), He says this :
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:39-40
So are they going to be raised up on the last day? Remember, only those that come to Him will be raised up....but they won't come to Him. Or is that just saying they don't want to? If that's the case, are they not drawn against their will?
So that drawing, as I read it, has to be more than just a wooing.
But even if you ignore all that, you need to note what I said before that part you quoted (of me). In it, I was saying that you can't necessarily distinguish between conviction and preparation. The heart of a man is what it is - deceitful and desperately wicked. Men will say they want Christ but in their hearts deny that. Have they come to Christ? Their reasoned will may be to do so, but in the depths of their hearts they reject Him. Only one thing overcomes that - and it isn't wooing (at least not first) - it is change. God has to do that first.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Another thought...how can conviction be considered wooing?
Which would be false since context is world, there would be no point in Him dying for the sins of the world, if the world didn't have the opportunity to be saved. It would flat out say He died only for the 'elect'.
There is a reason men will have no excuse before Him, and that is because they are offered salvation and reject it, which is why they will have no excuse. They would have all the excuse in the world if they were not given a chance to receive Christ.
The second half of the verse that has the Father drawing has all those who are drawn being raised up on the last day. Are you saying that every single man is in view when Jesus says this? [/quote]
No, those who receive Him will certainly be, thats the context of all scripture.
No one doubts the heart is wicked, which is why the Spirit was sent, to convict of us of sin- and in that lead us to Christ. Some receive the truth and some willfully reject it (to their own peril, they loved their sin more than the truth).