Not only that...
It's completely inane...
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Why, I don't know.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron now. You just refuse to recognize it because your desire is to support your system more than to follow Jesus wherever He leads you. And you will be rewarded accordingly.
Yes, clearly Jesus set foot on the earth and set up His kingdom when He was here in fulfillment of Zechariah 14. He also fulfilled Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about the image of gold, silver, brass, iron and clay. Dan 2:44KJV
The Jews are no longer His chosen people. They rejected Him and He has rejected them. There are no irrevocable covenants in the Old Testament. His chosen people are those who, by grace, through faith in Christ, are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
The new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is called the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:9-10), the wife of the lamb. Jesus does not marry a physical city; not now, not ever. He enters into mystical union with the body of believers known as the church universal. This is the New Jerusalem. It is a city not built with hands and has no temple in it.
Speaking of what is clear, it is not clear how a physical city that is a perfect cube 1365 miles in all directions could fit on Mount Zion.
I understand the standard explanation of futurism for this but I do not agree with it. The fact remains that Jesus is speaking in the present tense about a kingdom that already begins to exist and has it's origin in heaven. He acknowledges to Pilate that He has a kingdom - but it is nothing like the Roman one. Nothing can nullify Jesus' teachings, here and in His parables, about the advent of a spiritual kingdom. Mark 1:15KJV, Luke 17:20-21KJV, Luke 11:20KJV
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That is quite simply... ridiculous.
I guess that you have no idea what that phrase even means... It means that justice will be swift and fair on the earth. That is NOT what we see today were sin runs rampant and justice is anything but swift and fair.
A completely FALSE and unjust accusation. If Jesus were ruling with and iron rod, you'd be in trouble.
Your vain treats do nothing to support your false doctrine.
You're so confused by your false fairy tale. Jesus DEPARTED from the Mount of Olives in Acts 1 and has YET to return to it per Zechariah 14. You cannot just wave your magic wand to make your fake version true.
You are wrong, as usual.
Jer 31:35-36 KJV Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: (36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Paul is crystal clear that Israel will be restored:
Rom 11:15 KJV For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
The gentile nations will serve Israel and be blessed by Israel in the new Jerusalem, just like BOTH Revelation 21 and Isaiah 60 agree.
Isa 60:14-22 KJV The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Rev 21:23-26 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
This agrees with what God told Abraham long ago:
Gen 12:1-3 KJV Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Fantasy, George, just pure fantasy.
It's called the NEW Jerusalem for a reason. It has walls and gates, etc. etc. etc.
You're always doubting the Word of God.
Fantasy... pure fantasy... Enjoy your Disney vacation.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you think that the end of the age has already happened (Mt.24:3) and now we are in the kingdom age?
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
It is interesting how close one can be standing to the truth and not see it.
During the events that led up to Joseph being sold as a slave into Egypt, he dreamed a dream that astonished his parents and his brothers.
In his dream his father was the sun, his mother the moon and his brothers eleven stars and they bowed down and made obeisance to him. Since then the idea became embedded in the traditions and literature of the children of Israel that the sun, moon and stars represented a nation through the elders, leaders and patriarchs.
The prophets used these symbols, among others, to prophesy the downfall of nations throughout the Old Testament era. Ezek 32 - fall of Egypt. Isaiah 13 - fall of Babylon. Isaiah 34 - fall of Idumea.
And here, in the verse you have chosen, is the same language and it says that when the lights go out for Israel, it will no longer be a nation according to Him.
This is the same language used in Matthew 24 where Jesus warns his disciples of the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans in the first century. According to true apocalyptic language, the sun, moon and stars fell from the sky in AD 70 and Israel was no more.
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You're living a dream world yourself George. Your doctrine is trying to twist the Bible into a pretzel.
The point of that passage in Jeremiah is that God will never abandon Israel. And yet you spin it on its head. Keep reading....
Jer 31:37 KJV Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Can you measure the heaven above or search out the earth beneath? No, you cannot. Therefore, God will NOT cast off all of the seed of Israel.
And why did you ignore the rest of my post? Thought you had a killer?
No, Jesus has NOT returned to the Mount of Olives as both Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 tell us that He will.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What about the unfulfilled land promises which the LORD made to Israel?:
"My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them" (Jer.24:6).
The LORD promises that He will bring the Israelites back to the land and will not uproot them. We see the same promises repeated by the prophet Amos:
"I will bring my people Israel back from exile.'They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,' says the LORD your God" (Amos 9:14-15).
These prophecies were certainly not fulfilled at any time in the first century because as late as the second Jewish revolt (A. D. 132-135) the Jews were excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death.
Now let us look at the "land" promises of the LORD under the Davidic covenant:
"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).
There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
If "Israel was no more" in the first century, as you maintain, then you must think that the LORD lied to David because He will never fulfill the promises which He made to him.
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George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
No I cannot, neither could any man until Jesus Christ. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" Col 1:16KJV
He is the infinite God/man. Prior to his entry into the world there was no man who could do these things. Yet He came as a man, like any other, except for inherent sinfulness. He was present when the world was founded. He was pre-existing with the Father in Heaven.
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" Pro 30:4KJV
And it is He who cast off the seed of Israel and took away their right to be a special nation before God. In doing so He changed their status and placed them in the same unprotected predicament as gentiles. They must now be individually born again by God's Spirit and they shall be granted grace to say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord". These are the remnant that shall be saved.
There is, now, no difference between Jew and Gentile. All must come to the Father through faith in Christ who has fulfilled the law and the prophecy.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
If I may ask a general question...
How many here believe that the old covenant has passed away? Is there a new covenant in Jesus' blood that is now in effect or is the old one still in force?
Hebrews 8:13KJV, Heb 7:11KJV, 2Co 3:6KJV, 1Co 11:25KJV
If you believe, as I do, that the old testament/covenant has passed away and given way to a new one, have a look at these words of Jesus,
Matthew 5:17–18KJV
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
According to this, either the old covenant is still in effect, or heaven and earth has passed and all is fulfilled.
How many here believe that the old covenant has passed away? Is there a new covenant in Jesus' blood that is now in effect or is the old one still in force?
Hebrews 8:13KJV, Heb 7:11KJV, 2Co 3:6KJV, 1Co 11:25KJV
If you believe, as I do, that the old testament/covenant has passed away and given way to a new one, have a look at these words of Jesus,
Matthew 5:17–18KJV
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
According to this, either the old covenant is still in effect, or heaven and earth has passed and all is fulfilled.
That is a good point, but when? Because I do observe the Torah in part and I do not believe that heaven and earth have passed away.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
It depends on the meaning of "till heaven and earth pass". It can have a physical meaning or a figurative one.
Consider Isaiah 51:16KJV. Here the heavens and the earth are limited to the children of Israel and their special place with God.
I believe it is also used figuratively of the Jews' special favor from heaven and their unique position in the world for thousands of years in Matt 24:34-35KJV It was their "heaven and earth" that was coming to an end. And it is in this sense that the tribulation that occurred of 70 AD can never be repeated.
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Dream world. That scripture was NOT about Jesus measuring.
Doesn't change that scripture a bit.
Wonderful... God's permanent promises to Israel do not change.
There is yet much to be fulfilled. Your fantasy does not change that.
When did Jesus return to the Mount of Olives per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14? (hint: not yet).
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Is any of what you are saying speculation? It seems that you would not want to be sure of something that you should not be sure about. I understand that Jesus spoke of what happened in 70 AD before it did. But as to when heaven and earth passed away I am drawing a blank.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why don't you first answer my remarks to what you said previously?:
What about the unfulfilled land promises which the LORD made to Israel?:
"My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them" (Jer.24:6).
The LORD promises that He will bring the Israelites back to the land and will not uproot them. We see the same promises repeated by the prophet Amos:
"I will bring my people Israel back from exile.'They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,' says the LORD your God" (Amos 9:14-15).
These prophecies were certainly not fulfilled at any time in the first century because as late as the second Jewish revolt (A. D. 132-135) the Jews were excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death.
Now let us look at the "land" promises of the LORD under the Davidic covenant:
"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).
There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
If "Israel was no more" in the first century, as you maintain, then you must think that the LORD lied to David because He will never fulfill the promises which He made to him.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
In Matthew 24, Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. The temple was the center of the Jewish world and the very reason for their being. This is where the sacrifices for sin were offered by the genealogically confirmed Levitical priests. For Jesus to predict the utter desolation of this temple was the same as saying their world was about to come crashing down around their ears.
When God speaks by the mouth of Isaiah in Isaiah 1:2KJV He is speaking to the children of Israel. He addresses the heavens and the earth as personified in the children of Israel. They were in covenant relationship with the one and only true God of the universe. This covenant was their heaven and earth. But God did away with the old covenant and established one that could not be destroyed by Israel's unfaithfulness. (I would argue that the covenant of grace has always been in effect, but that is a different discussion)
At the destruction of Jerusalem the heavens and the earth were shaken and what remained after that shaking was Jesus and His blood.
I do not see what you are saying by personified. I accept all scripture. We should talk about what the scriptures mean. Shalom.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Perhaps not the best word for this discussion. If we take another example you will see what I mean. The "law and the prophets" was a Jewish idiom that meant means the totality of the Old Testament revelation. The idiom "heaven and earth" encapsulated the totality of what the old covenant meant to them. It was not restricted just to a physical interpretation of sky and globe. It could mean the most important purpose(s) for someone or something's existence; in this case the Jews. We have a similar expression in English - "she/he means the world to me". The French say "raison d'etre".
Heaven and earth, when applied to the Jewish nation, often signified, symbolized or represented all that they were; the totality of their Jewishness. This is an expression within the apocalyptic language of the Jews. It was this heaven and earth, their covenant relationship with God, that passed away with the destruction of the temple. And all the tribes mourned.
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That is a false statement. Please try to support it with some evidence.
Another false statement and again without support.