Full Preterism

[Jacob]

Perhaps not the best word for this discussion. If we take another example you will see what I mean. The "law and the prophets" was a Jewish idiom that meant means the totality of the Old Testament revelation. The idiom "heaven and earth" encapsulated the totality of what the old covenant meant to them. It was not restricted just to a physical interpretation of sky and globe. It could mean the most important purpose(s) for someone or something's existence; in this case the Jews. We have a similar expression in English - "she/he means the world to me". The French say "raison d'etre".

Heaven and earth, when applied to the Jewish nation, often signified, symbolized or represented all that they were; the totality of their Jewishness. This is an expression within the apocalyptic language of the Jews. It was this heaven and earth, their covenant relationship with God, that passed away with the destruction of the temple. And all the tribes mourned.

I do not believe that any such relationship exists or existed. Meaning, heaven and earth did not symbolize or represent all that they were.

 

[George Affleck]

The idiom "heaven and earth" encapsulated the totality of what the old covenant meant to them.

That is a false statement. Please try to support it with some evidence.

Isa 1:2KJV - do the heavens and earth have ears to hear what God tells them about rebellion or only the Jews?
Isa 51:16KJV - is God talking to the physical heavens and earth?
Isa 34:4KJV Isa 34:5KJV - was the earth destroyed along with Idumea in 553BC?
Haggai 2:21-22KJV - specifies the strength of a nation, not the cosmos.

...their covenant relationship with God, that passed away with the destruction of the temple.

Another false statement and again without support.

Leviticus 26:14-20KJV

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Hebrews 1:11KJV Hebrews 8:6KJV Hebrews 8:8KJV Hebrews 8:13KJV Hebrews 7:11KJV

 

[George Affleck]

I do not believe that any such relationship exists or existed. Meaning, heaven and earth did not symbolize or represent all that they were.

That's fine. I respect your right to see things as you decide.

My part in this conversation began with objecting to a statement about preterism which was misleading. They do not propose that Jesus returned as the Roman army. They believe He utilized the Roman army as His tool to punish wicked Israel and to facilitate the destruction of the physical temple, which is quite different.

Blessings

 

[Right Divider]

Isa 1:2KJV - do the heavens and earth have ears to hear what God tells them about rebellion or only the Jews?

Isa 1:1-2 KJV The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. (2) Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.​

A figure of speech in a vision... bad example.

Isa 51:16KJV - is God talking to the physical heavens and earth?

Isa 51:15-17 KJV But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name. (16) And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. (17) Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.​

More highly figurative language.... is that your pattern?

Isa 34:4KJV Isa 34:5KJV - was the earth destroyed along with Idumea in 553BC?
Haggai 2:21-22KJV - specifies the strength of a nation, not the cosmos.

Isa 34:2-8 KJV For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (3) Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (4) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. (5) For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. (6) The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. (7) And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. (8) For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.​

You seem to be a big fan of taking highly figurative passages and forcing your own meaning on them.

Hag 2:20-23 KJV And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, (21) Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; (22) And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. (23) In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.​

That does NOT refer to Israel, but to the heathen nations.

Leviticus 26:14-20KJV

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Hebrews 1:11KJV Hebrews 8:6KJV Hebrews 8:8KJV Hebrews 8:13KJV Hebrews 7:11KJV

You've not proved your point, but you have proven that you will force (at least in your own mind) the scripture to conform to your ideas.

 

[Jacob]

That's fine. I respect your right to see things as you decide.

My part in this conversation began with objecting to a statement about preterism which was misleading. They do not propose that Jesus returned as the Roman army. They believe He utilized the Roman army as His tool to punish wicked Israel and to facilitate the destruction of the physical temple, which is quite different.

Blessings

Okay. But just because AD 70 happened does not mean that heaven and earth have passed away.

 

[George Affleck]

A figure of speech in a vision... bad example.
More highly figurative language.... is that your pattern?
You seem to be a big fan of taking highly figurative passages and forcing your own meaning on them.

Now you are beginning to get the idea. The phrase "the heavens and the earth" is not always physical but can have a figurative meaning. Well done.

That does NOT refer to Israel, but to the heathen nations.

You have cornered the obvious my friend! You have concluded that if it is also used by the Jews to describe the 'be-all and end-all' of other nations, it is rightfully an idiom embedded in the apocalyptic literature of the Hebrews.

You've not proved your point, but you have proven that you will force (at least in your own mind) the scripture to conform to your ideas.

No...I have not proved my point to your satisfaction. That's OK.

 

[George Affleck]

Okay. But just because AD 70 happened does not mean that heaven and earth have passed away.

Correct - absolutely!

My belief is not that the physical heaven and earth has passed away, but that the old covenant, which, for the Jews, was their heaven and earth, has passed away. And that it is possible that this is the meaning in Matt 24:35 as in other places.

We are all in process.

 

[Right Divider]

Now you are beginning to get the idea. The phrase "the heavens and the earth" is not always physical but can have a figurative meaning. Well done.

When did anyone ever say that it always meant "the physical"?

You have cornered the obvious my friend! You have concluded that if it is also used by the Jews to describe the 'be-all and end-all' of other nations, it is rightfully an idiom embedded in the apocalyptic literature of the Hebrews.

Whoopee..

No...I have not proved my point to your satisfaction. That's OK.

Your explains wouldn't satisfy any reasonable person.

Care to get back to your lack of explanation of Jesus' return Acts 1 and Zechariah 14?

 

[Jacob]

Correct - absolutely!

My belief is not that the physical heaven and earth has passed away, but that the old covenant, which, for the Jews, was their heaven and earth, has passed away. And that it is possible that this is the meaning in Matt 24:35 as in other places.

We are all in process.

I am not saying that heaven and earth have passed away, but what about when Jesus died? Did heaven and earth pass away then?

 

[George Affleck]

I am not saying that heaven and earth have passed away, but what about when Jesus died? Did heaven and earth pass away then?

I don't know of any Bible verse that leads us to think that it happened that way. Can you?

 

[Jacob]

I don't know of any Bible verse that leads us to think that it happened that way. Can you?

There is nothing to say AD 70 either.