Forgiveness

[elohiym]

So they Jesus wasn't asking that they be forgiven for that, right?
Did anyone think Jesus was guilty of a capital crime?
True.
...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.
...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.

What's your point, Turbo? If they didn't know, they couldn't have repented, and thus we have a request for forgiveness from God to himself (unless you don't believe Jesus is God) before repentance. That was my point in addressing Shimei's post.

Peace

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[BillyBob]

I'll never forgive lovemeorhateme for starting this thread.

[or for coming up with such a long username ]

 

[Servo]

What's your point, Turbo? If they didn't know, they couldn't have repented,

That is why Jesus said what He said.

Do you think there was a specific sin that Jesus forgave them for? Or was it just general forgiveness for all there sins?

and thus we have a request for forgiveness from God to himself (unless you don't believe Jesus is God) before repentance. That was my point in addressing Shimei's post.

Do you believe that unrepentant sinners are ever forgiven?

 

[BillyBob]

LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:

 

[elohiym]

By accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, Christ shed blood cleansed me and made me holy.

His literal blood, or what his blood represented?

How about the disciples? Jesus told them BEFORE the cross that they were already clean...

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Were the disciples clean through the word which Christ spoke to them, or was it the blood that cleaned them after the cross?

Do you think it was it necessary for Christ do die in order for you to be saved?

Absolutely! How could God's promise to Abraham be true if his prophecies about Jesus were false? How can a new covenant be in force when an old one still remains in force?

Paul did not assert that believer's children will not need Christ. My daughter will need to accept Christ as her Savior as much as anyone else does.

Isn't your daughter already clean and holy, like Paul claims? You seem to be ignoring that, and what it means. What do you think Paul meant when he stated that a believers children are clean and holy?

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26[/indent]

True. Nothing I have stated contradicts Romans 3:23-26.

Are you saying that your daughter has already sinned? If not, what need does she have for blood? If she dies, God forbid, as an infant, will she be saved even though she never sinned and was never "washed" in Jesus' blood?

Peace

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[kmoney]

We should have an attitude of forgiveness, forgive those who repent.

So you interpret it as forgive everyone each time every time, even if they don't repent?

Like I said before, I have basically thought that we should forgive with or without the person coming to you in repentance, but I am open to changing my thinking on this question. When you don't forgive someone, is it just a mental thing for you? Or do you actually "rebuke" and ignore them. What does the unforgiving entail?

 

[elohiym]

That is why Jesus said what He said.

Do you think there was a specific sin that Jesus forgave them for? Or was it just general forgiveness for all there sins?

I would have to assume. Regardless, it is an example of love covering sin.

Do you believe that unrepentant sinners are ever forgiven?

Yes. I think Jesus proved that on the cross.

What good is forgiveness from God when a person does not understand it, or refuses to repent and turn from sin?

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Don't miss what Jesus told them. "If you were blind, ye should have no sin." That was said BEFORE the cross.

Peace

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[temple2006]

For instance.....I have a half-sister who refuses to communicate with me in any way. She does not answer letters, refuses to acknowledge invitations, etc. This has been the case since 1968. I have no idea why. What can I possibly repent of since I have no quarrel with her. I have forgiven her (accepted the situation) and I stand ready to have a relationship with her should she so desire. I weep, not for myself but for her, that she is at a point where she cannot grasp the hand that is extended to her in friendship.........WHY?......I guess she expects me to apologize for whatever it is that she holds against me. But how can I do that when I don't know what the problem is? To cut off communication with someone is a very serious thing. Do you now see what not forgiving the unrepentant can do?

 

[DaringlyStupid]

For instance.....I have a half-sister who refuses to communicate with me in any way. She does not answer letters, refuses to acknowledge invitations, etc. This has been the case since 1968. I have no idea why. What can I possibly repent of since I have no quarrel with her. I have forgiven her (accepted the situation) and I stand ready to have a relationship with her should she so desire. I weep, not for myself but for her, that she is at a point where she cannot grasp the hand that is extended to her in friendship.........WHY?......I guess she expects me to apologize for whatever it is that she holds against me. But how can I do that when I don't know what the problem is? To cut off communication with someone is a very serious thing. Do you now see what not forgiving the unrepentant can do?

She should have rebuked you in hopes that you would repent and she could forgive you (Luke 17:3).

If she did rebuke you and would not repent... that would be a different story.

 

[Lovejoy]

Lovejoy,

I can't answer for T, but I'd like to take a shot at addressing your post. It was not a matter of being hung up on the need for a sacrifice. A perfect sacrifice was needed for the transgressions under the first covenant...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think people are under a false assumption that Jesus died for the transgressions under the first and second covenants; but forgiveness under the second covenant is a free gift. It cannot be conditional on a blood atonement sacrifice, which is absolutely a work of the law.

We receive the PROMISE of eternal inheritance under the new covenant because Jesus removed the obstacle of the first covenant, redeeming those who lived and died under it.

Matthew 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those were the saints who had lived and died under the old covenant. They are now before the throne of God...

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They made their robes white in the blood of the lamb. In other words, their transgressions under the first covenant were redeemed by Christ's blood atonement sacrifice.

In contrast, Revelation 6 describes the souls under the altar who were given white robes. Under the altar is symblic language for the earth, and the souls are those living after the cross. They are given white robes as opposed to the great multitude who have made their robes white in the blood of the lamb.

True. What covenant does the blood atonement appear under? The old covenant, not the new covenant.
Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness?

Peace

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What, then, is required for salvation now?

 

[elohiym]

What, then, is required for salvation now?

Grace of course. Just grace.

A covenant is a contract, as you know, and a contract has two parties. The first contract, between God and the children of Israel was that God would provide the righteousness and Israel would keep all the laws.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Under that first contract with God millions lived and died. They put their faith, so to speak, in a blood atonement sacrificial system which only pointed to the perfect sacrifice.

God had to remove one contract and establish and confirm a new contract because of his promise to Abraham. How could all nations be blessed under the curse of the law, right? So to complete the first contract, the perfect sacrifice clause was used, so to speak. And I say it that way because we can find symbols pointing to Jesus and the "sacrifice clause" within the first contract itself.

What was the second contract?

Hebrews 8:10-12 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

What does Jesus' blood represent in the new contract? Does the cup of his blood not represent the one spirit of God?

So where his literal blood fulfilled the old contract with Israel, in the new contract his blood is symbolic for the holy spirit we receive through the grace of God. It shouldn't surprise us that Jesus' blood becomes symbolic for higher spiritual truth, as the OT sacrifices were symbolic for Jesus' sacrifice. Can we really assert that his blood had magic cleansing power, as it was human blood in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Peace

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[Rimi]

I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

It is in this sense that he overlooks the offence - he is deferring payment for want of a better phrase. The payment is still due - it is a debt owed by Adam and Eve. It is this debt that is passed on to us as well.

You are getting too hung up on one meaning of the word forgive.

God chooses to overlook the debt we owe. BUT, he can only overlook it for a limited time, there comes a point when we have to pay the debt we owe. It is at this point that God cannot choose to overlook the debt anymore, this point occurs when we die. However, God wanted us free of this debt and so He arranged for the debt to be paid through the blood of Christ, therefore Christ went to the cross and paid the debt that we owed. So now we have a situation where, IF we repent, Christ will take over the debt we owe and has arranged payment of it on the cross. If we do not repent then WE must pay the debt we owe when we die.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you Rimi. Where you say there is no forgiveness without repentance, I would say it would be more accurate to say there is no remission of sins without repentance.

T.

You are mistaken. They were barred from Eden and wonderful with God. The world became a harsh place for them to grow crops and eke out a living. Childbearing was made worse then He intended. Woman became subjected to the man, and not so much a helpmate anymore. And from dust they were made, to dust they would return. Sounds like death to me. They were never to touch the Tree of Life.

Semantics.

 

[Rimi]

If God loved us while we were dead in our transgressions (Eph. 2:4,5), and love covers all sins (Pr. 10:12), then God forgave our sins BEFORE Jesus dies on the cross, as seen in Christ's ministry before his death (Lk. 5:20; 7:48).

Peace

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Wrong. He loved while we were sinners, yes. But He did not forgive without repentence.

 

[Rimi]

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.

 

[Zakath]

There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.

The same thing might be said about his "love", since, according to the bible, he will damn the alleged object of his love to eternal torment if they do not repent... :think:

 

[Rimi]

Like I said before, I have basically thought that we should forgive with or without the person coming to you in repentance, but I am open to changing my thinking on this question. When you don't forgive someone, is it just a mental thing for you? Or do you actually "rebuke" and ignore them. What does the unforgiving entail?

There are guidelines for those who are of the Body of Christ in one of Paul's letters on how to treat someone who continues to act is if not saved: treat them as an unbeliever.

If not of the Body, yes avoiding would be fine. Let God avenge.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:

:rotfl:

 

[Delmar]

LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:

I say we just call him hate.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

I say we just call him hate.

Why?

 

[elohiym]

Wrong. He loved while we were sinners, yes. But He did not forgive without repentence.

Unfortunately Rimi, it is you that are wrong. Love covers all sins, as the Bible teaches. God's love covered our sins while we were dead in them. He did forgive without repentance, or he would not have covered our sins, and he would not have sent his son to die for them. You seem to be missing that grace is evidence of forgiveness.

Did you also miss the fact the Jesus forgave several people in the Bible BEFORE the cross without them confessing any sin or repenting as you seem to be interpreting the word? Are you just going to ignore that paradox, or the paradox' I have pointed out?

A person repents from unbelief, Rimi. Repentance is NOT when a person says he's sorry to God because he sinned a specific sinful act and he's not going to do it again. Do you undertstand that?

Peace

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