Forgiveness

[Rimi]

Rev 20:12

 

[elohiym]

Rev 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First, those would have to be the wicked, mainly because I am in Christ, and Paul states I will be judging, not being judged.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Second, the wicked being judged according to their works are being judged according to their works of unbelief. They have all rejected God's forgiveness, and his holy spirit, just like the wicked servant.

Peace

###

 

[HisLight]

In my personal case? No. I asked God for forgive me those I couldn't call to mind and those I didn't know about. So, I have no idea what assertion you think I'm making here, HL.

My assertion here is that as fallen human beings we are not fully aware of the sin in our lives. We are foolish to presume that it is possible to always have our sin fully confessed before the Father. Yet God has justified us through the work of Christ on the cross. We stand fully justified before God as Christians. Can unconfessed sin damage our relationship with Him? Yes, but it is our heart that causes the problem, not whether or not we have gone through the exercise of confessing that sin.

I think that there is an attitude that I read in this thread that there is a formula for forgivness. Something like the offender must repent and then we are obligated to forgive, otherwise no forgiveness is necessary.

I think that all too often we look for things to be formulaic, when God isn't looking for formulas but rather to the heart of the person.

The problem with saying that the other person has to repent first is that God knows whether the heart of a Christian is ready to forgive should the offender ask for repentance. God knows whether or not we are truly desirous of reconciliation with the other party.

I think that sometimes withholding forgiveness is entirely within God's will. I think that other times God challenges us to forgive the offending party. I believe that this really is a matter that is best left to God's leading in a particular situation.

 

[elohiym]

Elohiym, you're saying the wicked servant was forgiven in any case because of God's goodness.

What else can be said, Rimi?

To claim that the wicked servant repented before his debt was forgiven would force the rest of the parable to be interpreted as we can lose our salvation even after we have repented of sin. I totally reject that.

Peace

###

 

[Rimi]

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First, those would have to be the wicked, mainly because I am in Christ, and Paul states I will be judging, not being judged.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Second, the wicked being judged according to their works are being judged according to their works of unbelief. They have all rejected God's forgiveness, and his holy spirit, just like the wicked servant.

Peace

###

Jesus said they were judged already in John 3:18, so I have no clue what you're saying here.

 

[Rimi]

HisLight wrote:

My assertion here is that as fallen human beings we are not fully aware of the sin in our lives. We are foolish to presume that it is possible to always have our sin fully confessed before the Father. Yet God has justified us through the work of Christ on the cross. We stand fully justified before God as Christians. Can unconfessed sin damage our relationship with Him? Yes, but it is our heart that causes the problem, not whether or not we have gone through the exercise of confessing that sin.

Yes, THRU CHRIST. And then only because His sacrifice of Himself. But some here are saying that we were forgiven even if we don't repent and that is a mockery of Christ's work on the cross.

I think that there is an attitude that I read in this thread that there is a formula for forgivness. Something like the offender must repent and then we are obligated to forgive, otherwise no forgiveness is necessary.

Yes. Even Jesse Ventura figured this out. He'd insulted some religious group and was asked by the media if he intended to apologize. He answered: No, they have to forgive me anyway. So, all these "oh, you have to forgive no matter what" Christians have taught this man that he need to nothing because he'll be forgiven anyway. This is simply not what God shows us in His word.

I think that all too often we look for things to be formulaic, when God isn't looking for formulas but rather to the heart of the person.

Sure, He can see the heart of the person. Like, He can see if someone is truly repentent. But He does look for that or He cannor and will not do anything in the way of forgiveness for them.

The problem with saying that the other person has to repent first is that God knows whether the heart of a Christian is ready to forgive should the offender ask for repentance. God knows whether or not we are truly desirous of reconciliation with the other party.

God is very clear on the part of the offended party: if someone repents, then we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. If we do not, then we are not being perfect as God is perfect.

I think that sometimes withholding forgiveness is entirely within God's will. I think that other times God challenges us to forgive the offending party. I believe that this really is a matter that is best left to God's leading in a particular situation.

Agree to a point. God's forgiveness is entirely within His will -- He can choose to forgive or not depending on the repentence of the person before Him. Agree that sometimes we are challenged to forgive when there's a repentent person before us -- no one said it would be easy. With discernment given us by God, we can determine if someone is just mouthing off the words they think we want to hear. If we determine they are lying, then we're under no obligation to act a fool and forgive.

 

[Rimi]

What else can be said, Rimi?

To claim that the wicked servant repented before his debt was forgiven would force the rest of the parable to be interpreted as we can lose our salvation even after we have repented of sin. I totally reject that.

Peace

###

Well, let's see. The wicked servant repented . . . and yet didn't forgive as he was forgiven. So, perhaps he was just mouthing the words and not sorry at all but afraid only of the consequences.

 

[kmoney]

There are guidelines for those who are of the Body of Christ in one of Paul's letters on how to treat someone who continues to act is if not saved: treat them as an unbeliever.

If not of the Body, yes avoiding would be fine. Let God avenge.

Do you ask God for forgiveness everytime you sin?

 

[Rimi]

Do you ask God for forgiveness everytime you sin?

Relevance to this discussion? Point?

 

[kmoney]

Relevance to this discussion? Point?

When you were saved and God forgave you, do you believe it was for every sin you have committed and ever will commit? Or do you think that if you sin tomorrow you will have to ask for forgiveness?

 

[Rimi]

When you were saved and God forgave you, do you believe it was for every sin you have committed and ever will commit? Or do you think that if you sin tomorrow you will have to ask for forgiveness?

I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?

 

[HisLight]

HisLight wrote:


Yes, THRU CHRIST. And then only because His sacrifice of Himself. But some here are saying that we were forgiven even if we don't repent and that is a mockery of Christ's work on the cross.

I agree that God forgives us all sin, even sin that has not been confessed. To say otherwise is to understate the amount of sin in our lives.

Yes. Even Jesse Ventura figured this out. He'd insulted some religious group and was asked by the media if he intended to apologize. He answered: No, they have to forgive me anyway. So, all these "oh, you have to forgive no matter what" Christians have taught this man that he need to nothing because he'll be forgiven anyway. This is simply not what God shows us in His word.

I agree that God gives us discernment about when and how to forgive. Clearly there is no reconciliation with an offender if he is not sorry for his offense.

Sure, He can see the heart of the person. Like, He can see if someone is truly repentent. But He does look for that or He cannor and will not do anything in the way of forgiveness for them.

God is very clear on the part of the offended party: if someone repents, then we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. If we do not, then we are not being perfect as God is perfect.

I agree that in order to be be justified before God we have to repent of our sin and trust only in Christs work on the cross. But as a Christian, I am aware that I cannot fully understand the extent of my sin or the offense it causes. I am sure that there is sin in my life that I am simply not ready to see, yet God doesn't hold that against me.

Agree to a point. God's forgiveness is entirely within His will -- He can choose to forgive or not depending on the repentence of the person before Him. Agree that sometimes we are challenged to forgive when there's a repentent person before us -- no one said it would be easy. With discernment given us by God, we can determine if someone is just mouthing off the words they think we want to hear. If we determine they are lying, then we're under no obligation to act a fool and forgive.

I used to agree with you on forgiveness. Last year God challenged me to forgive someone who is very difficult. This person is not likely to repent of her actions any time soon. She has yet to admit that she is even responsible. I have always made it a point to let her know when she crosses the boundaries, but they have never been a productive conversations. I used to get so angry because her offenses caused someone I care for a lot of pain. Yet I have no authority to change the situation.

The only one being harmed by my not forgiving her was me. I still draw the boundaries, I still let her know that there are consequences for crossing the boundaries, I manage her behavior to the extent I am able. She still has lots of room for game playing that I cannot control. I could focus on the offense and hold it over her head. Instead I see her for the person God showed me she is. I pray for her instead.

I do not believe that God calls us to take either attitude about forgiveness all of the time. Sometimes we should wait for a sincere confession, sometimes we should forgive unilaterally.

BTW - before you say that my situation makes me a doormat, I have to tell you that she has far less room to play games with me now because she knows that she no longer has the power to make me angry.

 

[HisLight]

I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?

I totally agree.

I just ask you to be open to the possibility that God may challenge you, in some circumstances, to forgive for your own sake before the other party repents. That doesn't mean that there is reconciliation, because without that repentance the relationship cannot be reconciled. The freedom for the Christian is not having to carry around the burden of the offenses that you are waiting on repentance for. There is a testimony in that that is clearly from God. You don't have to be a doormat.

 

[kmoney]

I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?

yeah, and that's how I feel also....I was just curious as to what you think based on you thinking we shouldn't forgive unless the person repents. I wanted to see if you thought that translated into us needing to repent for sins Christians commit after being saved.

 

[Rimi]

HisLight wrote:

I agree that God forgives us all sin, even sin that has not been confessed. To say otherwise is to understate the amount of sin in our lives.

It'd be impossible to recall every sin, praise God.

I agree that God gives us discernment about when and how to forgive. Clearly there is no reconciliation with an offender if he is not sorry for his offense.

Agreed. Didn't always. I thought and had been taught that I had to forgive no matter what, but God doesn't say that.

I agree that in order to be be justified before God we have to repent of our sin and trust only in Christs work on the cross. But as a Christian, I am aware that I cannot fully understand the extent of my sin or the offense it causes. I am sure that there is sin in my life that I am simply not ready to see, yet God doesn't hold that against me.

Totally agree.

I used to agree with you on forgiveness. Last year God challenged me to forgive someone who is very difficult. This person is not likely to repent of her actions any time soon. She has yet to admit that she is even responsible. I have always made it a point to let her know when she crosses the boundaries, but they have never been a productive conversations. I used to get so angry because her offenses caused someone I care for a lot of pain. Yet I have no authority to change the situation.

Funny, I used to agree with you. I don't know if it was God challenging you or not. I think you've got it in your head to forgive no matter what like most Christians. It's OK to have a righteous anger -- she's hurting someone for no valid reason. You can change it to a degree -- avoid her, cut her off. I take it you've confronted her? Well, boundaries are boundaries. Just to be clear: are her sins against you or this other person. If they're not against you, you have no authority to forgive her anyway, technically.

The only one being harmed by my not forgiving her was me. I still draw the boundaries, I still let her know that there are consequences for crossing the boundaries, I manage her behavior to the extent I am able. She still has lots of room for game playing that I cannot control. I could focus on the offense and hold it over her head. Instead I see her for the person God showed me she is. I pray for her instead.

Here's where you and I part ways. I too have had to deal with people who've hurt me beyond measure. What I finally figured out is it wasn't not forgiving them that hurt. It was the fact that they didn't think they needed to apologize for all the hurt. THAT's what hurt. And what freed me is Luke 17:3. With that, I could turn it all over to God. Sure, I can still pray for certain people, but I leave them to God for my peace. He is my peace, not whether I forgive.

I do not believe that God calls us to take either attitude about forgiveness all of the time. Sometimes we should wait for a sincere confession, sometimes we should forgive unilaterally.

Unless I can see a changed person, someone really in the throes of trying to change their lives or undo what they've done, or a simple thing as work up the courage to set aside pride and to say "I'm sorry" I do not let them off the hook. If they've done something wrong and won't admit it, I give it to God. I trust Him to deal with them. And I cut them from my life. I will not allow them to treat me that way. No anger, no rancor. Just cut.

BTW - before you say that my situation makes me a doormat, I have to tell you that she has far less room to play games with me now because she knows that she no longer has the power to make me angry.

No, I wasn't going to say that because I don't know what you're having to deal with. But you'd find greater strength in God's work, turning it over to Him completely, than trying to forgive her. I bet if you really asked yourself this, you'd admit you've had to "repeat forgive" -- even tho she's never asked for it. I figured out why I was having to do this: because I'd not truly forgiven. I truly believe it's a lie to forgive when they're not repentent, because then we run to got saying, "Well, I forgave them and they're still treating me this way! How can you ask this of me!" But He doesn't ask this of us, HL. He doesn't even ask it of Himself. Peace.

 

[Rimi]

I totally agree.

I just ask you to be open to the possibility that God may challenge you, in some circumstances, to forgive for your own sake before the other party repents. That doesn't mean that there is reconciliation, because without that repentance the relationship cannot be reconciled. The freedom for the Christian is not having to carry around the burden of the offenses that you are waiting on repentance for. There is a testimony in that that is clearly from God. You don't have to be a doormat.

I'm being very serious when I say God gave me great freedom when I understood Luke 17:3. Truly free. Free to move on. Free to forgive if someone who has hurt me does finally see what they've done -- sorrow even for them because they have to live with how they behaved. Free to trust God. This is freedom in Christ. I am not waiting for anyone or anything except God's promises fulfilled. Not a doormat at all.

 

[Rimi]

yeah, and that's how I feel also....I was just curious as to what you think based on you thinking we shouldn't forgive unless the person repents. I wanted to see if you thought that translated into us needing to repent for sins Christians commit after being saved.

I cannot even BEGIN to tell you what a hurdle this was for me, coming from a RC background. But His word seems pretty clear even if not at all what I'd grown up believing.

 

[kmoney]

I cannot even BEGIN to tell you what a hurdle this was for me, coming from a RC background. But His word seems pretty clear even if not at all what I'd grown up believing.

I'm glad you are now living in the freedom Christ provided, no longer seeking forgiveness that is already given. Awesome....

 

[Truppenzwei]

Right Rimi,

I'm going to try one last time to explain this and if you still choose to ignore what I say and instead misrepresent my position then that is your choice.

1. You are using too narrow a definition for the word forgive. I have explained a couple of times how the word means various different things.

2. I am NOT saying that our sins are remitted before we repented, rather I have gone to great pains to point out that they are not.

3. What I am saying is that God has chosen to overlook our offenses for a time, to not hold them against us for the moment. This was necessary in order for Him to be able to send Christ to the cross.

4. Christ's work on the cross is what enabled us to be able to have our sins remitted by repenting.

5. Christ's teaching on forgiveness IS that we are to choose to overlook offenses freely. It is not that we are to remit the offense, this is something that can only be done once the offender repents.

6. If the offender has repented and we remit his offense then we are very clearly NOT supposed to keep a record of the offense, to keep score and say "look, I know you are repenting of this, but you've already done that umpteen times...."

I am not, repeat not saying that Christ's work on the cross was useless. No, it was totally necessary in order for our sins to be removed from us. However what I AM saying is that God chose to overlook our offense for enough time for Christ to do the work.

 

[HisLight]

HisLight wrote:

It'd be impossible to recall every sin, praise God.

AMEN!!!

Funny, I used to agree with you. I don't know if it was God challenging you or not. I think you've got it in your head to forgive no matter what like most Christians. It's OK to have a righteous anger -- she's hurting someone for no valid reason. You can change it to a degree -- avoid her, cut her off. I take it you've confronted her? Well, boundaries are boundaries. Just to be clear: are her sins against you or this other person. If they're not against you, you have no authority to forgive her anyway, technically.

Here's where you and I part ways. I too have had to deal with people who've hurt me beyond measure. What I finally figured out is it wasn't not forgiving them that hurt. It was the fact that they didn't think they needed to apologize for all the hurt. THAT's what hurt. And what freed me is Luke 17:3. With that, I could turn it all over to God. Sure, I can still pray for certain people, but I leave them to God for my peace. He is my peace, not whether I forgive.

Unless I can see a changed person, someone really in the throes of trying to change their lives or undo what they've done, or a simple thing as work up the courage to set aside pride and to say "I'm sorry" I do not let them off the hook. If they've done something wrong and won't admit it, I give it to God. I trust Him to deal with them. And I cut them from my life. I will not allow them to treat me that way. No anger, no rancor. Just cut.

No, I wasn't going to say that because I don't know what you're having to deal with. But you'd find greater strength in God's work, turning it over to Him completely, than trying to forgive her. I bet if you really asked yourself this, you'd admit you've had to "repeat forgive" -- even tho she's never asked for it. I figured out why I was having to do this: because I'd not truly forgiven. I truly believe it's a lie to forgive when they're not repentent, because then we run to got saying, "Well, I forgave them and they're still treating me this way! How can you ask this of me!" But He doesn't ask this of us, HL. He doesn't even ask it of Himself. Peace.

This person is part of my step-daughter. She has at various times done things that hurt my child with the intent of offending me. These things happened at a time that while they were not against me directly it was clearly done with that intent. My child was far too young to even understand the offenses in the beginning.

I cannot cut her out of my life, that is up to my husband. I draw boundaries for her and I let her choose what happens. She knows that when she crosses the line that there will be consequences with me, that is more than anyone else seems capable of.

Your last question is interesting... No I have not had to forgive her repeatedly. I let her know that she is responsible for her actions whether she accepts it or not. I let her know that the consequences of the actions are on her as well.

Your comment about giving her over to God is exactly how I look at this situation. Only God can heal her wounds and until she repents and recognizes that she needs Him, the situation isn't likely to get better. I have quit expecting her to change and so I am not disappointed or offended when she doesn't.

I cannot recall ever unilaterally forgiving anyone before. I don't know how to explain to you how I know that God challenged me to do this.