Forgiveness

[Truppenzwei]

Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

 

[Lovejoy]

Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

Hmm. I don't know. There are so many instances where God does, indeed, hold the sin of a man (or woman) against them. David lost his first born. Moses (nor any of the first generation of those leaving Egypt) never entered the promised land. How many people suffered at the improper handling of the Ark, at least until atonement was made? Certainly there are many instances in which God does relent on punishment, yet there are also many instances in which He punished to the full extent of a person's guilt. Even in the NT. Only repentance ever seemed to forestall His wrath with full efficacy.

 

[Truppenzwei]

Hmm. I don't know. There are so many instances where God does, indeed, hold the sin of a man (or woman) against them. David lost his first born. Moses (nor any of the first generation of those leaving Egypt) never entered the promised land. How many people suffered at the improper handling of the Ark, at least until atonement was made? Certainly there are many instances in which God does relent on punishment, yet there are also many instances in which He punished to the full extent of a person's guilt. Even in the NT. Only repentance ever seemed to forestall His wrath with full efficacy.

Certainly I would agree that there are many instances where we see specific offenses being held against a person, this does not detract from the fact that the vast majority of their debt (ie that handed down from Adam) was not held against them unless they did something that really dishonoured God.

I'm not sure if that makes things clearer or not but I'm a bit tired.

 

[Lovejoy]

Certainly I would agree that there are many instances where we see specific offenses being held against a person, this does not detract from the fact that the vast majority of their debt (ie that handed down from Adam) was not held against them unless they did something that really dishonoured God.

I'm not sure if that makes things clearer or not but I'm a bit tired.

No, I see your point. I will have to think about it a bit before I return to the matter. Certainly, I do not wish to be the one trying to portray God as unforgiving. My question is merely to the efficacy and need of repentance for forgiveness. Certainly, the fact that we are here at all is a testament to a gracious God.

 

[Truppenzwei]

No, I see your point. I will have to think about it a bit before I return to the matter. Certainly, I do not wish to be the one trying to portray God as unforgiving. My question is merely to the efficacy and need of repentance for forgiveness. Certainly, the fact that we are here at all is a testament to a gracious God.

I have found that it helps to think of forgiveness as being the 'not holding an offense against someone' part and I tend to use the phrase remission of sins to cover the part that requires repentance.

Using the above paragraph as definition I'll try and rephrase what I mean.
God forgiving us (as in not holding our offense against us) was necessary for Him to be able to walk in a way where He could send His Son to die for us in order to remit our offenses. For us to walk in a way where our sins have been remitted we MUST repent first.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

 

[Rimi]

If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.

 

[Lovejoy]

If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.

I begin to think that what he is trying to portray is more God's heart on the matter, rather than our actual reality. The reality is that Christ is the only path, but God stilll wants us all there. Only those that choose Christ will be with God, but it was not because God did not want to forgive those that didn't make it. I can see his point, in that it is only through the forbearance of God (as alluded to in Romans 3:25) that we ever even had the opportunity to have propitiation through Christ. Anyway, this all out of my league, but I see what he is trying to portray. However, it is still only through Christ that we receive efficacious Grace.

 

[Truppenzwei]

If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.

I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

It is in this sense that he overlooks the offence - he is deferring payment for want of a better phrase. The payment is still due - it is a debt owed by Adam and Eve. It is this debt that is passed on to us as well.

You are getting too hung up on one meaning of the word forgive.

God chooses to overlook the debt we owe. BUT, he can only overlook it for a limited time, there comes a point when we have to pay the debt we owe. It is at this point that God cannot choose to overlook the debt anymore, this point occurs when we die. However, God wanted us free of this debt and so He arranged for the debt to be paid through the blood of Christ, therefore Christ went to the cross and paid the debt that we owed. So now we have a situation where, IF we repent, Christ will take over the debt we owe and has arranged payment of it on the cross. If we do not repent then WE must pay the debt we owe when we die.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you Rimi. Where you say there is no forgiveness without repentance, I would say it would be more accurate to say there is no remission of sins without repentance.

T.

 

[Sozo]

I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

He most certainly did! The payment for sin is death, and Adam and Eve were separated from the LIFE of God on the day they ate from the tree. Salvation is the restoration of the LIFE, and that LIFE is the LIFE of Christ in which we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sin.

"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

 

[elohiym]

Jesus had to pay the debt BEFORE we could be forgiven of it.

If God loved us while we were dead in our transgressions (Eph. 2:4,5), and love covers all sins (Pr. 10:12), then God forgave our sins BEFORE Jesus dies on the cross, as seen in Christ's ministry before his death (Lk. 5:20; 7:48).

Peace

###

 

[elohiym]

Forgiving someone who is unrepentant is like standing at the alter all by yourself and saying "I do".

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

###

 

[Turbo]

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

###

What did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them for? What did they not know they were doing?

 

[lovemeorhateme]

Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

I agree with you. That is I think the best explanation I have heard on this thread so far.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

When Jesus was on the cross, being crucified, the people doing it to him were obviously not repentant. So why did he then say, 'Father, forgive them'?

 

[elohiym]

Lovejoy,

I can't answer for T, but I'd like to take a shot at addressing your post.

You seem to be trying to make a case for an unconditionally forgiving God that was just hung up on the need for a sacrifice.

It was not a matter of being hung up on the need for a sacrifice. A perfect sacrifice was needed for the transgressions under the first covenant...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think people are under a false assumption that Jesus died for the transgressions under the first and second covenants; but forgiveness under the second covenant is a free gift. It cannot be conditional on a blood atonement sacrifice, which is absolutely a work of the law.

We receive the PROMISE of eternal inheritance under the new covenant because Jesus removed the obstacle of the first covenant, redeeming those who lived and died under it.

Matthew 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those were the saints who had lived and died under the old covenant. They are now before the throne of God...

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They made their robes white in the blood of the lamb. In other words, their transgressions under the first covenant were redeemed by Christ's blood atonement sacrifice.

In contrast, Revelation 6 describes the souls under the altar who were given white robes. Under the altar is symblic language for the earth, and the souls are those living after the cross. They are given white robes as opposed to the great multitude who have made their robes white in the blood of the lamb.

And yet, Leviticus 4:26 places atonement squarely before any forgiveness.

True. What covenant does the blood atonement appear under? The old covenant, not the new covenant.

Even Hebrews 9:22 contradicts you, stating that there is no forgiveness without the Blood. It does not state that it releases some pent up forgiveness, or even imply it.

Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness?

Peace

###

 

[Turbo]

Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness?

Christ's blood is required for forgiveness regardless of covenant.

 

[elohiym]

What did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them for? What did they not know they were doing?

I can only assume, Turbo. Here's what we don't have to assume:

1. They thought they were killing someone who claimed to be the Messiah.
2. Some participating in the execution knew Jesus was innocent.
3. The executioners were not repentant before the execution.
4. Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.
5. They were forgiven.


Peace

###

 

[elohiym]

Christ's blood is required for forgiveness regardless of covenant.

Please explain to us how you obtain forgiveness using blood under this covenant?

Then, since you are going to be a father, please explain how you daughter will obtain forgiveness through Christ's blood in light of Paul's assertion that she is already clean and holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Peace

###

 

[Turbo]

I can only assume, Turbo. Here's what we don't have to assume:

1. They thought they were killing someone who claimed to be the Messiah.

So they Jesus wasn't asking that they be forgiven for that, right?

2. Some participating in the execution knew Jesus was innocent.

Did anyone think Jesus was guilty of a capital crime?

3. The executioners were not repentant before the execution.

True.

4. Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.

...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.

5. They were forgiven.

...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.

 

[Turbo]

Please explain to us how you obtain forgiveness using blood under this covenant?

By accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, Christ shed blood cleansed me and made me holy.

Do you think it was it necessary for Christ do die in order for you to be saved?

Then, since you are going to be a father...[/url]I already am a father.

please explain how you daughter will obtain forgiveness through Christ's blood in light of Paul's assertion that she is already clean and holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Corinthians 7:12-16​

Paul did not assert that believer's children will not need Christ. My daughter will need to accept Christ as her Savior as much as anyone else does.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26​