Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Clete

Clete

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beloved57 said:
Evasion, rabbit trail, insults is your response.

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Your every post on this thread (and others) is evidence that what I've said is the truth. Whether it happens to be insulting to you is irrelevant.
 
Clete

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
popsthebuilder said:
I don't know why people freak out about the Calvinist doctrine. As if they know GOD's Will in there own life more than He. What mere person could possibly have the knowledge or foresight to say that GOD does or doesn't allow one to wholly experience sin, suffering, waywardness, reality, help, salvation, direction, edification, chastisement, and submission by GOD's Will?

What arrogant fool is so haughty as to claim that GOD hadn't destined all these things and infinitely more before their conception, or the conception of the earth even?

Serious questions for anyone.

Peace

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It doesn't take errogance to use third grade level reasoning skills.

If there is a god that predestines people by whatever means to an eternal punishment for sins that he predestined and that they had no ability to avoid commiting by virtue of this god's omnipotent, unchangable, pre-ordained will, then that god is unjust, BY DEFINITION.


No arrogance is required to understand the meaning of the word justice. All you have to do think as well as an average home-schooled third grader and you can figure it out.


Resting in Him,
Clete
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Pate said

Salvation has been provided for all, but NOTHING is yours if you don't receive it
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then he quoted Jn 1:12 for support. Problem is

John 1:12 doesn't say what pate quoted, so his personal quote is false and invalid and without scripture support.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Salvation has been provided for all, but NOTHING is yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.
Click to expand...

Now you're changing your tune. Originally you said God didn't see unregenerate, unsaved people (unbelievers) except in Christ - that He sees all things through His Son. So God doesn't see the unregenerate (as unregenerate?) is your conclusion. So the way God sees me isn't the way I am?

The problem is that God does see the unbeliever as he is.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

Your earlier assertion that Christ is reconciling the world to Himself as evidence that all things are being seen in Him (by God) has to lead you to universalism because, as Paul (the same one who wrote to the Corinthians about reconciling the world to Himself) says above, that reconciliation is salvation. So is all the world going to be saved?

Getting back again to how God views unbelievers :

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

Remember what Jesus said :

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

Returning to Romans 8 :

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9b

It should be clear that God does NOT view all things as being in His Son. They may be viewed as being in His Son or not, but the question still remains - how does He view those that are NOT in Christ? Can I give you a hint?

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Romans 3:9-18

It doesn't sound like the Gospel has anyone viewing the unbeliever in Christ.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
nikolai_42 said:
Now you're changing your tune. Originally you said God didn't see unregenerate, unsaved people (unbelievers) except in Christ - that He sees all things through His Son. So God doesn't see the unregenerate (as unregenerate?) is your conclusion. So the way God sees me isn't the way I am?

The problem is that God does see the unbeliever as he is.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

Your earlier assertion that Christ is reconciling the world to Himself as evidence that all things are being seen in Him (by God) has to lead you to universalism because, as Paul (the same one who wrote to the Corinthians about reconciling the world to Himself) says above, that reconciliation is salvation. So is all the world going to be saved?

Getting back again to how God views unbelievers :

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

Remember what Jesus said :

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

Returning to Romans 8 :

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9b

It should be clear that God does NOT view all things as being in His Son. They may be viewed as being in His Son or not, but the question still remains - how does He view those that are NOT in Christ? Can I give you a hint?

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Romans 3:9-18

It doesn't sound like the Gospel has anyone viewing the unbeliever in Christ.
Click to expand...


Salvation is something that you must enter into.

All who believe the Gospel have entered into the faith and are now part of God's new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

They are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven. They are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

In the judgment you will either be found in Christ or you will be found in your sins. It appears to me that you are still in your sins.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Salvation is something that you must enter into.

All who believe the Gospel have entered into the faith and are now part of God's new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

They are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven. They are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

In the judgment you will either be found in Christ or you will be found in your sins. It appears to me that you are still in your sins.
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False statements not found in scripture.

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
False statements not found in scripture.

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You nit pick the Bible and only accept the scriptures that you think supports your phony religion.

The Bible was written for everyone and is a complete book. You need to accept all of the Bible and not just some of it. But then if you did that you would not be a Calvinist.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You nit pick the Bible and only accept the scriptures that you think supports your phony religion.

The Bible was written for everyone and is a complete book. You need to accept all of the Bible and not just some of it. But then if you did that you would not be a Calvinist.
Click to expand...
You are responsible for the statements you make that are not supported by scriptures, not me.

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nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Salvation is something that you must enter into.

All who believe the Gospel have entered into the faith and are now part of God's new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

They are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven. They are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

In the judgment you will either be found in Christ or you will be found in your sins. It appears to me that you are still in your sins.
Click to expand...

While some of the details may be different, I think most Calvinists would agree with those conclusions about one's standing in Christ. What you are attacking on your anti-Calvinism posts is that part of Reformed theology that addresses how one gets there and what is it that makes it clear to someone of their need (and the nature of that need). So when you turn around and start saying that God only sees everything through Christ (even unbelievers) then it has to be taken as a statement on God's understanding of where the unbeliever is NOW. Yet scripture is clear that the unbeliever and the believer in no way stand in the same relation to Christ. To push your view on reconciliation as hard as you do must (as far as I can see) result in universalism. If it doesn't, then God's view of the unbeliever both now and in the judgment (since the unbeliever is condemned ALREADY) isn't going to change.

In other words, you still refuse to address how God looks at the unbeliever and his ability.
 
P

popsthebuilder

New member
Clete said:
It doesn't take errogance to use third grade level reasoning skills.

If there is a god that predestines people by whatever means to an eternal punishment for sins that he predestined and that they had no ability to avoid commiting by virtue of this god's omnipotent, unchangable, pre-ordained will, then that god is unjust, BY DEFINITION.


No arrogance is required to understand the meaning of the word justice. All you have to do think as well as an average home-schooled third grader and you can figure it out.


Resting in Him,
Clete
Click to expand...
Good thing eternal torment is a grand misconception then.

Peace

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
nikolai_42 said:
While some of the details may be different, I think most Calvinists would agree with those conclusions about one's standing in Christ. What you are attacking on your anti-Calvinism posts is that part of Reformed theology that addresses how one gets there and what is it that makes it clear to someone of their need (and the nature of that need). So when you turn around and start saying that God only sees everything through Christ (even unbelievers) then it has to be taken as a statement on God's understanding of where the unbeliever is NOW. Yet scripture is clear that the unbeliever and the believer in no way stand in the same relation to Christ. To push your view on reconciliation as hard as you do must (as far as I can see) result in universalism. If it doesn't, then God's view of the unbeliever both now and in the judgment (since the unbeliever is condemned ALREADY) isn't going to change.

In other words, you still refuse to address how God looks at the unbeliever and his ability.
Click to expand...


As far as God is concerned Jesus Christ is God's new creation and his new humanity. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel. Jesus is Lord because he has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil. Colossians 2:15. If Jesus had not defeated sin, death and the devil, God would not have accepted him back into heaven and it would not be possible for anyone to be saved. For now God sees ALL THINGS in Christ, Colossians 1:20. For now God is at peace with the world. All that will change when Christ appears.
 
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