1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Can you prove beyond a doubt that Paul wasn't inferring all kinds of men?
Those in authority, bond, free, great and small?
It is what the context suggests, ya know?
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Can you prove beyond a doubt that Paul wasn't inferring all kinds of men?
Those in authority, bond, free, great and small?
It is what the context suggests, ya know?
beloved57
Well-known member
They all will be saved and come into the knowledge the Truth.
What that have to do with your legalism gospel?
Read the bible much?
Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.
Luke 20:17 Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone’?
18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Ask Mr. Religion
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Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.
Instead of erroneously claiming the Calvinist believes this or that, if persons would avail themselves of a Scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs—WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here—much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot the same old canards of others in discussion forums, never digging deeper in order to understand that which they cavil about.
God's love (that is, setting His preference upon another) in the marking out of His children is not random, but from His own wise counsel which is not revealed to us in Scripture.
Again, see above about your presuppositions about what Calvinists believe versus what we actually believe.
Are those saved the product of their own good moral abilities to choose wisely?
Were those now saved not wholly at enmity with God, sinning with every breath they drew, before that instantaneous moment when they were born anew (regenerated), and then made able to choose wisely?
Your view of the moral state of the unbeliever does not comport well with what Scripture teaches(Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).
Belief is all of mankind's duty. Whether a person possesses the ability to do so is in no way an excuse for not doing their duty, for all are admonished—not courted, wooed, or begged with God seemingly wringing His hands in hope—to do their duty.
Unless Paul is patently untruthful in Romans 1, no one being honest with oneself can claim they cannot believe upon the Lord. The revealed will of God is in all of Scripture. What God wants us to know about Himself is on every page of Scripture. But let's not mistakenly assume that all of what God's thoughts or all of who God is, can be found in Scripture. We are to think God's thoughts after Him, not to assume our thoughts are exactly descriptive of God's thoughts. If we could fully apprehend the mind of God, we would in fact become gods.
Thus, it is this revealed will of God in Scripture that is man's duty to obey. If we love God we will obey God. Our Lord was not making a request in John 14:15, rather He was stating our moral imperative.
When Our Lord told Nicodemus you must be born again, He was not telling Nicodemus to go out and choose to be born again. Rather, Our Lord was informing Nicodemus of a logical necessity (Greek, dei, for must). By the use of such a strong term, Jesus indicates that regeneration is essential, imperative, and absolutely necessary for salvation. It is a vital link in the chain of sovereign grace.
Unfortunately some students of Scripture have erroneously concluded that because the word dei refers to logical necessity, it also expresses the idea of human responsibility. In other words, they conclude that Jesus is suggesting that Nicodemus take personal responsibility for his own new birth.
Notice, however, that Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to do anything in order to be born again. Our Lord did not instruct him to make a decision, say a prayer, or even to repent and believe the gospel. "Ye must be born again" is simply a statement of fact, not a command to be obeyed. "Ye must be born again" is a declarative—not an imperative—sentence.
In fact, the words of the Our Lord Jesus Christ, instead of suggesting that Nicodemus should assume personal responsibility for his own salvation, teach exactly the opposite idea.
The purpose of the entire passage might be summarized like this: Regeneration is not something any man can do, for flesh can only produce flesh. It is a miraculous work of God the Holy Spirit, Who blows when and where He pleases. Jesus is saying, "Yes, Nicodemus, the new birth is a necessity, but neither you nor any other man can cause it to happen, even if you could think of a way to return to the womb of your mother. Only God can perform this work."
Perhaps you will object, "To tell a man about the necessity of being born again in one breath, then, that he is utterly helpless to produce such a work in his own soul in the next, is self-defeating and contradictory."
The proper answer is that, on the contrary, our Lord's goal was to expose the fallacy of trusting in one's own efforts and works for salvation. If mere religiosity or devotion to a life of law-keeping could save a person, Nicodemus would have been very safe. But Jesus says no one is safe, regardless of their achievements, family history, social status, or religious fervor. Because of the universality of sin, the new birth is necessary before anyone will see the face of God in peace. Furthermore, because of sin's debilitating effect upon all mankind, no one has the moral ability to rescue himself. John 3:7 does not teach that man must assume responsibility for his own salvation. Instead John 3:7 teaches that the sinner's only hope of eternal bliss is the sovereign grace of God.
If you want to delve a wee bit deeper, my excursus on this point follows:
Spoiler
Resist vain speculation (2 Timothy 2:23). Let's leave that which is not revealed by God in Scripture, e.g., exactly who is or who is not elect, to God alone. When God shuts His mouth, so should we.
AMR
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Rosenritter
New member
When Peter said that "You are the Son of God" do you know what that means? I just referenced that, and implied that if you didn't know where I was referring to to ask. We're not talking about Adam, or one of the "sons of God" that shouted for joy when the universe was created, it's a different type, a unique type. And Paul tells us what that means. It contradicts the meaning you assumed.
It will do no good for me to post it here unless you're willing to read it. And I don't believe you're willing to read it if you won't ask for the reference or alternatively produce it yourself.
Rosenritter
New member
Joh 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
We are supposed to believe the scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). It does say Jesus is God. In so many fashions and ways in and out.
Rosenritter
New member
Answer me two questions please:
1. Can you tell me when "Rosenritter" was formed?
a) one real day in time sometime more than 10 years ago but less than 100 years
b) sometime within the last year
2. If I met you on the street, would I be telling the truth if I told you I was "Rosenritter?"
a) yes
b) no
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Rosenritter
New member
Justin Martyr actually had an interesting proof that God revealed His name as Jesus in the books of Moses. Though otherwise, the name doesn't appear until the New Testament. He's just called "the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" and so forth.
Rosenritter
New member
According to your doctrine, can the elect choose damnation? Or can the elect earn damnation and receive the punishment of sin?
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Assuming I have read you correctly, you reveal your denial of the Triune Godhead while resorting to crass declarations in the process. Sigh.
God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are separate persons; yet, they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-powerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.
Furthermore, God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit as a force (Arians, Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is God one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son who then became the Holy Spirit (United Pentecostal). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).
The duality of Christ's nature, fully human and fully divine, cannot be wholly and definitively answered. If we could, we would possess divine minds ourselves. We can confidently state from Scripture that there are three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance that is partaken of wholly by each of the persons, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.
Christendom declares the One God who eternally exists in three different persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of whom are fully God, all of whom are equal. To deny this is to place oneself beyond the bounds of what being a Christian means.
AMR
The questions in and of themselves are flawed, because the elect are whom God foreknew merited salvation.
Such questions show nothing more than an utterly arbitrary opposition to Calvinism, because they make it very apparent that the person asking has never given any real thought about it.
It's a question that I don't need to answer, because if you don't know it than you shouldn't report to have ever opened a Bible in your life
There is no verse that says 'heretics will be put to death' and there doesn't need to be one because that is what happens from Genesis to Revelation you imbecile :doh:
But those as yourself are so absurd that you'll hinge on that to deny it.
Well, then, give us some verses that show this practice was being done throughout the Old and New Testament?
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God's marking out those to whom He set His preference upon, the elect, we so marked without any foreknowledge of what they would or would not do. God was not peeking down the corridors of time to see what Martha or Johnny would do and then rubber-stamping their actions. Rather, God's choice was but by His own good and wise counsel, not based upon any foreseen merit, else He would make Himself a debtor to the actions and choices of those whom He so chose, contrary to 1 Cor. 1:31; Jer. 9:24; and see also 1 Cor. 1:26-30)
See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Anti-Christ&p=4484451&viewfull=1#post4484451
AMR
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So, those that MERITED Salvation, received it? That means they EARNED it.
When you MERIT something, you've EARNED it.
Better watch your "choice" of words Crucible!!
Cruc, if humanity is all considered unworthy (By Calvinists way of looking at the subject) then, how could God see SOME as WORTHY of Salvation, instead of basically choosing a number of human beings by His sovereignty alone?
Calvinists believe God chose a certain amount of humanity to be the Elect. He did it by His Sovereign will alone. That's according to your belief system. So, how did the Elect, according to you, MERIT their choice from God?
When you MERIT something, that means, you deserve it!
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I am hoping he was speaking infelicitously and will see how what he wrote can be misunderstood. Watch this space.
AMR