Do you believe in predestination ?

[Gary K]

Check out this thread & see if your questions are satisfied:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122698-The-Sovereignty-of-God&highlight=

Thank you. That answered my questions. i see a major fallacy in Calvinistic thought in the following quote taken from your opening post on that thread.

This boils down to Reformers believing Gods Sovereignty is absolute, while other faiths believe the sovereignty of God is limited. There are various ideas about these limits; most centering around the free will of man.

OK. Let me see if I can explain what I'm seeing clearly. To the Calvinist God's sovereignty is so absolute God must control everything. At least that is how I see the phrase Gods Sovereignty is absolute. This, according to Calvinistic thought, means God must control all things or else He not sovereign. However, if we look at the definition of sovereignty this is some form of sovereignty that is different than how the dictionary defines sovereignty.

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Sovereignty Sov"er*eign*ty, n.; pl. Sovereignties. [OE.
soverainetee, OF. sovrainet['e], F. souverainet['e].]
The quality or state of being sovereign, or of being a
sovereign; the exercise of, or right to exercise, supreme
power; dominion; sway; supremacy; independence; also, that
which is sovereign; a sovereign state; as, Italy was formerly
divided into many sovereignties.
[1913 Webster]

Notice that included in the definition of sovereignty is the right to exercise supreme supreme power. Nowhere in Calvinistic thought do I see that idea expressed. Let me explain that before you say it is. The right to exercise power does not mean it must always be exercised. The best leaders, of who God is the by far the greatest, have always understood that it is far better to lead by example than to drive people. In Calvinistic thought God always drives for He must always control everything. That is the opposite of love.

The other aspect of the Calvinistic concept of sovereignty is that if God cannot choose whether or not to exercise his power of sovereignty He is, in fact, controlled by His power/sovereignty rather than exercising it according to His own desire. He ends up being a slave to His own power if He cannot choose to not control everything.

I've seen Lon use the example of fatherhood to explain his idea of the lack of choice. How much of a father is a man who has to control everything his children do? I can tell you by personal experience. He is no father at all. He's a controlling nightmare. He allows no choice other than His choice no matter how his children view things. He makes no effort to understand his children he just attempts to drive them where he thinks they ought to go in life. That is not the God of scripture, but that is the God described by Calvinism but even that seems to not be God's own choice, but one made by His power/sovereignty.

 

[Nang]

https://kgov.com/time

... but that's for another thread.



Ok, we'll come back to that in a moment.

One more question:

Is God's omniscience (knowing everything, past, present, and future, including your (future) existence) required for Him to be God?

In other words, is omniscience one of His attributes?

Yes, omniscience is one of the attributes of God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, omniscience is one of the attributes of God.

So, by your own argument...

No, there was never a time when God did not know about me.

... God's omniscience is reliant on you existing.

By your own argument, without knowledge of you, God would not be omniscient.

Therefore He is either not omniscient, or you're (part of) God.

Do you realize how blasphemous and self-centered that is?

He doesn't have to have exhaustive foreknowledge to be God.

He doesn't need to be omniscient to be God.

He doesn't have to have knowledge of you, Nang, to be God.

God does not need you, Nang, to be God.

God is God, whether you existed or not.

You, Nang, are not required to exist, either in the future or in God's mind, for God to make plans for the future.

Again, do you realize how blasphemous it is to say that God needs you to exist to be omniscient?

 

[Nang]

To the Calvinist God's sovereignty is so absolute God must control everything.

This is so. God would not be God if He didn't control all things. He is the first cause and source of all things created.

Notice that included in the definition of sovereignty is the right to exercise supreme supreme power. Nowhere in Calvinistic thought do I see that idea expressed.

The only theological definition of "Sovereignty" is found in Holy Scripture alone, and the whole of Scripture reveals the supreme rule of God's controlling will and purposes.

God has provided the perfect example of His sovereignty and ability to overcome even sin and death, in the unique and supernatural birth of Jesus Christ. . . God's visitation to His creation in the flesh as Man.

The other aspect of the Calvinistic concept of sovereignty is that if God cannot choose whether or not to exercise his power of sovereignty He is, in fact, controlled by His power/sovereignty rather than exercising it according to His own desire. He ends up being a slave to His own power if He cannot choose to not control everything.

If anything ever exampled Godly power and love, it is the incarnation of the Son of God!

I've seen Lon use the example of fatherhood to explain his idea of the lack of choice. How much of a father is a man who has to control everything his children do? I can tell you by personal experience. He is no father at all. He's a controlling nightmare. He allows no choice other than His choice no matter how his children view things. He makes no effort to understand his children he just attempts to drive them where he thinks they ought to go in life. That is not the God of scripture,

Agreed.

It also does not correctly define the sovereignty of Triune God. It only is applicable to sinful parents . . not the Fatherhood of Triune God.

but that is the God described by Calvinism

I disagree. You are mistaken if you think this is Reformed teaching.

but even that seems to not be God's own choice, but one made by His power/sovereignty.

Unfortunately, you are considering "control" humanistically and negatively rather than biblicly, spiritually, and positively. Calvinists worship God's Sovereignty, powers, and control; considering these are the divine factors that saved their very souls.

Jesus Christ resurrected from death by submitting His will to the Sovereign Will of the Father, as our example. It was nothing less than the total control and power of God that raised Him from the dead.

Faith that saves sinners, is gifted trust in God, from God, to believe He will do the good for us what we cannot choose to do for ourselves. Only by His power and fulfillment of His purposes are any souls freed from the bondage of sin and the condemnation of a certain death. This is the most perfect form of love. John 15:13

 

[Nang]

do you realize how blasphemous it is to say that God needs you to exist to be omniscient?

I am not saying that. You are . .

God has always known me in Christ according to His own will, purposes, and choosing. Ephesians 1:3-11

 

[Right Divider]

This is so. God would not be God if He didn't control all things. He is the first cause and source of all things created.

The God of the Bible tells people to chose, but according to your philosophy that is a farce.

 

[Nang]

The God of the Bible tells people to chose, but according to your philosophy that is a farce.

The Gospel message tells people to believe and repent, but sinners will not and therefore cannot do so. Their hearts and will are held in bondage to sin and the devil.

It takes regeneration by the Holy Spirit of God, changing the heart and will of the sinner, that enables him to believe and repent.

 

[Right Divider]

The Gospel message tells people to believe and repent, but sinners will not and therefore cannot do so. Their hearts and will are held in bondage to sin and the devil.

It takes regeneration by the Holy Spirit of God, changing the heart and will of the sinner, that enables him to believe and repent.

So, according to you, God tells people to do something that they cannot do. :juggle:

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am not saying that. You are . .

Yes, you are saying EXACTLY that.

God has always known me in Christ according to His own will, purposes, and choosing. Ephesians 1:3-11

You said:

Yes, omniscience is one of the attributes of God.

"Omniscience" means "all knowing." For God to know you would exist is inherently part of Him being omniscient.

You said:

No, there was never a time when God did not know about me.

But that means that in order for God to be omniscient, He has to know about you, because whether you like it or not, you exist, which means that God knew that you would exist, in agreement with what you said.

Therefore, in order for God to be omniscient, it means you, Nang, HAVE TO EXIST.

If YOU DID NOT EXIST, then God is not omniscient.

That's your position.

It's blasphemous, because it means that God's omniscience relies on YOUR EXISTENCE.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, according to you, God tells people to do something that they cannot do. :juggle:

Doesn't make Him that much in control, does it...

 

[Right Divider]

Doesn't make Him that much in control, does it...

She/They have bogus word definitions that she/they take to an absurd extreme.

 

[Nang]

So, according to you, God tells people to do something that they cannot do. :juggle:

Instructions from God (Laws) are holy and good.

The inability to perform the instructions is due to sin and unbelief, which is bad.
The sons of Adam are slaves of the devil, and are held accountable for their own failures.

God causes all that is good.


God is good to provide and apply the rightousness and ransom of Jesus Christ, to men while they are still sinners, and God is good to enable them to follow His instructions unto holiness by gifting them with faith to hear and believe in Christ's works on their behalf.

This is the Gospel message . . .

Beware of calling God evil for doing such good.

 

[Right Divider]

Beware of calling God evil for doing such good.

I never call God evil... but you do.

 

[Nang]

Yes, you are saying EXACTLY that.



You said:



"Omniscience" means "all knowing." For God to know you would exist is inherently part of Him being omniscient.

You said:



But that means that in order for God to be omniscient, He has to know about you, because whether you like it or not, you exist, which means that God knew that you would exist, in agreement with what you said.

Therefore, in order for God to be omniscient, it means you, Nang, HAVE TO EXIST.

If YOU DID NOT EXIST, then God is not omniscient.

That's your position.

It's blasphemous, because it means that God's omniscience relies on YOUR EXISTENCE.

I fear you are missing the point as to my existence. I have always "existed" in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ has always existed in eternity. This is not any kind of requirement placed upon the Godhead, for God Himself chose me in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-11; John Chapter 17.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I fear you are missing the point as to my existence. I have always "existed" in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ has always existed in eternity. This is not any kind of requirement placed upon the Godhead, for God Himself chose me in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-11; John Chapter 17.

You're basically admitting that my accusation is true.

For God to be omniscient, it requires you to exist, placing YOU at the center of it all. It's blasphemy, because it makes YOU a requirement for God.

 

[Nang]

You're basically admitting that my accusation is true.

For God to be omniscient, it requires you to exist, placing YOU at the center of it all. It's blasphemy, because it makes YOU a requirement for God.

You are conflating two realities in order to deny God is omniscient.

Do you believe Christ lived in full Godly glory before His incarnation? Was He equal within the Godhead? Is He thus also omniscient? Does that attribute require existence, or is it rather His eternal existence that reveal who and what He IS . . in all ways?

The sons of God, justified by Christ in time, were chosen by God for salvation by grace, and promised under covenant to inherit eternal life before the foundation of this world. Thus they were known and will be known in Christ, forever, for He IS eternal
life.

 

[Gary K]

This is so. God would not be God if He didn't control all things. He is the first cause and source of all things created.





The only theological definition of "Sovereignty" is found in Holy Scripture alone, and the whole of Scripture reveals the supreme rule of God's controlling will and purposes.

I will only address these two ideas for now as they are the crux of my argument. And let me say I believe God is sovereign, not a little bit, but fully sovereign. But, I believe God does choose when to exercise His power. In other words, He is fully sovereign even over His own choices and power. Calvinism does not give Him that kind of sovereignty. Its definition of His sovereignty makes God unable to choose whether or not to exercise His power. I find that to be a very inferior god.

So, basically, you are saying God has no choice in when, where, and how to exercise His sovereignty. In other words He is a slave to it. He has no choice in it. How can such a God be truly sovereign if He has no choice? Having no choice whether or not to exercise such power removes His sovereignty over His own self.

Being the first cause and source of all things does not by definition mean God must make all choices for His creation. That definition only means that He created all things. It does not have to mean that He controls all choices and events. The Bible tells us He didn't unless God deliberately meant sin to enter our world and for Lucifer to rebel against Him. And that means that God would be the source of all evil. I find that a fascinating belief, even though false. It means that God designed for pain, suffering, sorrow, degradation, heartbreak, cruelty, savagery, death, etc... to be part of human life so He could come play hero and "save" us from the very thing He designed. What a picture of God. I personally find it disgusting and I do not find that picture of God anywhere in scripture, nor in my life experience with Him. It was He who taught me what it meant to have a father who is not the controlling nightmare I see in Calvinistic thought.

In scripture God tells us He has loved us with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness has He drawn us to Him.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are conflating two realities

There's only one reality, Nang. Not two.

in order to deny God is omniscient.

Rather, I am showing that your position, that God is omniscient, to be blasphemous.

I do deny that God is omniscient, but that's not part of my argument.

Do you believe Christ lived in full Godly glory before His incarnation? Was He equal within the Godhead? Is He thus also omniscient? Does that attribute require existence, or is it rather His eternal existence that reveal who and what He IS . . in all ways?

False premise.

Omniscience is not required for God to be God.

The sons of God, justified by Christ in time, were chosen by God for salvation by grace, and promised under covenant to inherit eternal life before the foundation of this world. Thus they were known and will be known in Christ, forever, for He IS eternal life.

Chosen on the corporate level, not the individual.

Most of those who were chosen by God went to Hell.

Chosen: It's Not What You Think.

https://youtu.be/a9n1ASwC7s0

 

[Nang]

I will only address these two ideas for now as they are the crux of my argument. And let me say I believe God is sovereign, not a little bit, but fully sovereign. But, I believe God does choose when to exercise His power.

So do I and I am a "Calvinist."

In other words, He is fully sovereign even over His own choices and power. Calvinism does not give Him that kind of sovereignty. Its definition of His sovereignty makes God unable to choose whether or not to exercise His power. I find that to be a very inferior god.

Calvinists believe God's sovereignty is absolute. ABSOLUTE. Thus, God alone chooses whether and when to exercise His powers, in all things.

So, basically, you are saying God has no choice in when, where, and how to exercise His sovereignty.

Not at all . . .

Being the first cause and source of all things does not by definition mean God must make all choices for His creation. That definition only means that He created all things.

Right. And God created men and angels accountable (through willfulness) to live according to His good purposes and to believe in His sure promises. However, both estates failed to do so.

That is their fault (i.e. "secondary" causes).

It does not have to mean that He controls all choices and events. The Bible tells us He didn't unless God deliberately meant sin to enter our world and for Lucifer to rebel against Him.

Being omniscient and possessing full knowledge of all things, God knew Satan would fall from his first estate and that Adam would fail to obey His word.

And that means that God would be the source of all evil.

Evil is God's judgment against rebellion and unbelief. The cause of evil are those two things, committed by angels and mankind.

I find that a fascinating belief, even though false. It means that God designed for pain, suffering, sorrow, degradation, heartbreak, cruelty, savagery, death, etc... to be part of human life so He could come play hero and "save" us from the very thing He designed. What a picture of God. I personally find it disgusting and I do not find that picture of God anywhere in scripture, nor in my life experience with Him.

I agree.

It was He who taught me what it meant to have a father who is not the controlling nightmare I see in Calvinistic thought.

In scripture God tells us He has loved us with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness has He drawn us to Him.

Amen. The sons of God are beloved in Christ.

(The promises of Godly salvation are not universal.)

For the unrepentent angels and men will be judged; but it will be a holy, just, and deserved judgment of accountable creatures gone astray. All rebellion and unbelief will be eliminated and forever put away from those God knows, loved, and died for.

 

[Gary K]

So do I and I am a "Calvinist."



Calvinists believe God's sovereignty is absolute. ABSOLUTE. Thus, God alone chooses whether and when to exercise His powers, in all things.

Ummm.... No you do not assert that God has the ability whether or not to exercise His sovereignty. You say God must exercise His sovereignty in all situations. If God's sovereignty is absolute God is not sovereign. His sovereignty rules even Him. If you actually believed what I have been saying you would not be arguing the question of whether or not God's sovereignty must be exercised with me.

Here is the definition of absolute:

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Absolute Ab"so*lute, a. [L. absolutus, p. p. of absolvere: cf.
F. absolu. See Absolve.]
1. Loosed from any limitation or condition; uncontrolled;
unrestricted; unconditional; as, absolute authority,
monarchy, sovereignty, an absolute promise or command;
absolute power; an absolute monarch.

I believe God Himself is absolute, not His sovereignty, for God must be master of Himself, His choices, and His power or He cannot be considered truly sovereign.

You have told me multiple times that the Bible says God's sovereignty is absolute. I'd appreciate it if you would give me some of those texts for the words sovereignty and sovereign are not to be found in the Bible. I know that the lack of certain words isn't proof that the Bible doesn't teach something on some subject, but when the words are missing it makes the proof of what the Bible teaches on any subject much harder to come by. It takes a multiplicity of verses teaching one idea and with no other verses teaching something that opposes that idea. And there are an abundance of verses in the Bible telling men to choose and indicating that their choices are real and not forced upon them in any way.

I reject determinism based upon Biblical teaching.