Discussion - Enyart vs. Ask Mr Religion (One on One)

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Ask Mr. Religion

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You did not address a single point that I made, but instead have apparently graduated from the godrulz school of debate.
Your point was built upon the assumption that "Paul is not speaking of his state as a believer". I clearly showed you why that assumption is in error for the passages in question. Paul is speaking as a believer in those verses. It is an inescapable conclusion. You just don't want to see it, so I am wrong because of a myriad of pre-conceptions you have built up about me, and not because of my detailed argument presented, which you have failed to respond to directly.
 

godrulz

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AMR. Was it ordained by God that there be such a thing as second causes and if so would he understand the consequences of such?

Cause-effect belongs to inanimate creation.

Free will/love/volition/morals, etc. belongs to moral creation.

They are confusing categories of how God governs creation. We are not rocks nor mere animals (instinct law).
 

Mystery

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Your point was built upon the assumption that "Paul is not speaking of his state as a believer".
There is NO assumption. The evidence is RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU.

You did not answer my questions.

As a Christian is Paul in bondage to sin?

As a Christian is Paul in the flesh?

As a Christian is Paul a wretched man?
 

RobE

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Cause-effect belongs to inanimate creation.

Free will/love/volition/morals, etc. belongs to moral creation.

They are confusing categories of how God governs creation. We are not rocks nor mere animals (instinct law).

You keep saying this! How does cause-effect have no bearing on human decisions? Again, what is your proof that cause-effect only belongs to inanimate creation? Again, why do you think people make decisions based(caused) on no reasons whatsoever?

Explain consciousness.

Explain thought.

Explain how free will exists without a cause.

Give me an example of an effect without a cause.

What evidence is there that what you believe is true? There's much evidence that cause and effect are valid.
 

RobE

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This is probably my biggest frustration with settled viewers.

It's as if they want to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that EVERYTHING is ordained by God but then don't practice that notion on random occasions.

EVERYTHING means EVERYTHING - without exclusion.

Ordaining sin and commiting sin are different actions. Is it evil to allow sin in order to accomplish a greater purpose?

God ordained free will through the creative act knowing it would produce sin. In this sense - God ordained sin.

God didn't create or commit the sin, He simply allowed it as a bi-product of that which He did create. Mankind.
 

godrulz

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Ordaining sin and commiting sin are different actions. Is it evil to allow sin in order to accomplish a greater purpose?

God ordained free will through the creative act knowing it would produce sin. In this sense - God ordained sin.

God didn't create or commit the sin, He simply allowed it as a bi-product of that which He did create. Mankind.

Non sequitur...creating the possibility of sin is not ordaining or causing it. God did not intend or desire us to misuse our wills. Giving us the ability to love inherently has the possibility, not the certainty, of being able to not love.

"Satan and the Problem of Evil" (Boyd/IVP) does a masterful job of explaining evil, free will, determinism, etc.

Allowing something is not ordaining it. Issues of freedom, timing, justice, love, etc. factor in. You are jumping to the wrong conclusion due to faulty assumptions.
 

Nathon Detroit

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...with perfect regard to future event contingencies
From God's perspective, right now (as you read this today) do you believe that there are actual contingencies regarding the unfolding events of the future?

Or, does God know (right now as you read this) every event, in every detail, as it will unfold throughout all of time?

Asked another way.... (yet still from God's perspective)
Is the future entirely settled, or just partially settled?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon,

You need to pay closer attention. AMR just God though stating outright that God odained evil and that it is a good thing that evil exists.

That's evil Lon! Evil should be confronted, not thanked when they happen to say something that some limp-wristed, nicer than God fool can mindlessly take as being good advice.

Resting in Him,
Clete

So it is okay to ignore a plea to read God's Word? I mean, when you suggest likewise and I believe you are wrong, I still do not disdain "go and read this scripture prayerfully."

Both you and Knight have done this and ya know, regardless of how I feel about your presentation, I go and prayerfully read the scripture. There is nothing like God's Word to convict of righteousness.

I can come back and say "Hey that scripture had nothing to do with proving your point" but I still enjoy the exercise of reading God's Word. That is my contention. Naturally I saw the context, but I'm just trying to point out that "Please go read this scripture" isn't where you want to include your rejection. I mean we are talking scripture here. That is the focal point of our debates and discussion. If we can't even go read a scripture to ascertain our discussion theologically, what is the point?
 

Clete

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This is probably one of my biggest frustrations with unsettled viewers.

They cannot seem to grasp that God decrees all things that come to pass according to the nature of second causes (source):
(1) necessarily, e.g., the motion of the planets, atomic spin, etc.;
(2) freely -- voluntarily with no "violence being done to the will of the creature";
(3) contingently, i.e., with perfect regard to future event contingencies, as when God told David what Saul and Keilah would do to him if David remained in Keilah (1 Samuel 23:9-13).
One of my biggest frustrations is when a Calvinist pretends to address the issue when all he's actually done is repeated himself.

AMR does this intentionally. He knows full well that his post here is a distractionary tactic. It's nothing more than a more technical way of saying what he's already said. My response remains the same. According the Calvinist theology there is no secondary causes. Nothing happens outside of the direct sovereign control of God - including secondary causes if one were to insist that they do exist, which of course they cannot in the Calvinist worldview without begging the question.

I just love the fact that AMR came here espousing to hold to a rational worldview! We couldn't have hoped for a better representative of the Calvinist cult if God Himself had ordained his presence here.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

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So it is okay to ignore a plea to read God's Word?
Do you not read God's word already?

Of course its more than okay to ignore anything an blasphemer says - anything. If such a person tells you to give your mom a kiss on her birthday, if you're wise, you'd stop and think twice before taking his advice. And if your mom was wise, she'd tell you to skip it this time just to jab it in the eye of the one who blasphemes her Lord and Savior and God.

I mean, when you suggest likewise and I believe you are wrong, I still do not disdain "go and read this scripture prayerfully."
I disdain every word that proceeds from the lips of anyone who tell me that the existence of evil is good. Every word! Every single word Lon!

You really don't get it do you?

Why do you suppose that Satan comes as an angel of light?
Why do you suppose that Satan quoted the Scripture when tempting Christ?

It's because lies sound prettier when surrounded by the truth, Lon! He's using God's word to blaspheme his brains out and you are thanking him for reminding you to do that which you supposedly do already! Why do you need him to remind you to read the Bible? His every utterance of anything that sounds Christian should be an offense to you. But you're too nice for that, aren't you?

Both you and Knight have done this and ya know, regardless of how I feel about your presentation, I go and prayerfully read the scripture. There is nothing like God's Word to convict of righteousness.
I recommend then that you go read it more than you have been. You seem incapable of discerning right from wrong.

I can come back and say "Hey that scripture had nothing to do with proving your point" but I still enjoy the exercise of reading God's Word. That is my contention. Naturally I saw the context, but I'm just trying to point out that "Please go read this scripture" isn't where you want to include your rejection. I mean we are talking scripture here. That is the focal point of our debates and discussion. If we can't even go read a scripture to ascertain our discussion theologically, what is the point?
The point is confronting evil. There is a time for reading the Scripture and then there is a time for telling someone to take their proof text and shove it.

If it time for the latter and you try to call time out so that you can go read your Bible, which you should already done, you'll miss your opportunity to do the Godly and offensive thing toward the evil doer. There is wisdom in offending the wicked, Lon. Had you read your Bible and understood it, you'd know that.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Godrulz' infatuation with Boyd's warfare views

Godrulz' infatuation with Boyd's warfare views

"Satan and the Problem of Evil" (Boyd/IVP) does a masterful job of explaining evil, free will, determinism, etc.
“masterful job”? After reading this book, I can see why you love Boyd so much. Boyd’s journey into the world of the demonic and angelic is right up your metaphysical alley. Let’s examine that ‘warfare model’ you like to bandy about so much. I am sure everyone would like to know more about what’s behind all of this warfare-speak that godrulz thinks is “masterful”.


Boyd’s book, Satan and the Problem of Evil, is a polemic claiming the church has lost its vision of the warfare view. To understand Boyd’s underlying theology, one needs to go to the source, wherein Boyd defines his warfare thinking in the book, God at War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict (GAW). Boyd writes that "this warfare perspective constitutes the foundation for a theodicy that is philosophically superior to all alternatives, Christian and non-Christian alike" (p. 23).

In GAW, Boyd uses Daniel 10:12-13 to argue that evil invisible cosmic beings actually possess the power to disrupt a plan of God to answer a prayer. Boyd claims that the West is just not savvy enough when it comes to understanding the metaphysical realm, so Boyd trips on down to Ecuador to make his point relying upon the Shuar:

“…everything in the physical plane is understood against the backdrop of a highly influential, intricate and remarkably detailed spiritual world in which forces are at war with each other and through which people wage war against each other; the Shuar do not clearly differentiate these two spheres.... I call this basic understanding of the cosmos a warfare worldview…

…Stated most broadly, this worldview is that perspective on reality which centers on the conviction that the good and evil, fortunate or unfortunate, aspects of life are to be interpreted largely as the result of good and evil, friendly or hostile, spirits warring against each other and against us. The central thesis of this work is that this warfare worldview is in one form or another the basic worldview of Biblical authors, both in the Old Testament and even more so in the New” (p. 13).

For Boyd and unsettled theist’s in general, evil acts are just meaningless acts, and "it does not make sense to look for a higher divine 'why' to explain the particular actions of any one of these free agents. It therefore does not make sense to seek for a higher 'why' in God's will to explain the occurrence of any particular evil in the world. From a warfare worldview perspective, this quest is misguided, and the unsolvable problem it generates is in fact a pseudo problem. The only 'why' that can be found is located in the free agent who freely does what it does" (p. 57).

Boyd extends his ecstasy for the Eastern metaphysical philosophy by claiming we can only understand the warfare that is going on through a greater grasp of the nature of angelic beings, fallen and unfallen. But apparently the West is unable to do this without Boyd’s help. Boyd insists that understanding angels and demons is the only way to grasp the Scriptures, for “the cosmos is, by divine choice, more of a democracy than it is a monarchy” (p. 58).

In Chapter 2: “Locking up the Raging Sea: The Hostile Environment of the Earth” (pp. 73-92), Boyd believes the world is a canvas where these demonic and angelic forces are battling all around us, and our world has been ravaged by these conflicts (p.73). Boyd believes this is the world view of the Old Testament because this was the stance adopted in ancient Near Eastern literature. But it gets even better in the next Chapter.

In Chapter 3, “Slaying Leviathan: Cosmic Warfare and the Preservation and Restoration of Creation" (pp. 93-113), Boyd insists the Old Testament as appropriated the Near Eastern “conception of the world as being surrounded by hostile monsters that forever seek to devour it” (p. 94). So Boyd describes the three cosmic beasts, Leviathan, Rahab and Behemoth and insists that these mythological monsters are connected with creation accounts (Job 40-41), in which God is in a battle even to bring the creation into being. Boyd cannot reconcile the Genesis account of creation, so he casts a wide net and proposes we adopt the gap theory (he calls it the “restoration theory”). God had to do battle with the monsters to bring the universe into existence, the world being without form and void, and, hooray, God won, and everything was good. Thus, “the earth . . . is birthed, as it were, in an infected incubator. It is fashioned in a warfare context. It is itself altogether good, but it is made and preserved over and against forces that are perpetually hostile to it, just as the other creation-conflict passages of Scripture suggest” (p. 107).

Boyd uses the example of a Nazi torture victim, Zosia, to build his fantastical position in Chapter 4: “Judging 'the Gods': Yahweh's Conflict with Angelic Beings in the Old Testament” (pp. 114-142), arguing that God in the Old Testament rules the universe through the ranks of angelic intermediaries, some of whom may and do rebel against God. So we have this warfare worldview that explains Zosia’s torture due to one of God’s disobedient angelic “princes” of Germany, or maybe even a cosmic Leviathan. Thus, God is absolved of the evil being done here by a free angelic agent.

In Chapter 5 Boyd has God being truly surprised by Satan's answer to the question, "Where have you come from?" (Job 1:7), and insists that God is not in control of Satan, that there is “an uncontrolled dimension to the satan's activity” (p 147).

Next Boyd says that the warfare model comes front and center in the New Testament and claims that the Kingdom of God is that kingdom that defeats the army of Satan. Boyd states, “It is crucial for us to recognize that Jesus’ view about the rule of Satan and the pervasive influence of His army was not simply a marginal piece of first-century apocalyptic thought that he happened to embrace. It is, rather, the driving force behind everything Jesus says and does. Indeed, Jesus' concept of `the kingdom of God' is centered on these views” (pp. 184-185).

Now, hang on for this, for in Chapter 7: "War of the Worlds: The Warfare Theme of Jesus' Exorcisms and Miracles" (pp. 192-214), Boyd argues that during Jesus’ “exorcism ministry” that when casting out Legion (see Mark 5:1-27; Matthew 8:28-34; Luke 8:27-39), the fact that the demons reply to Jesus after being commanded to leave proves that Christ’s first attempt at exorcism “apparently failed”, so Christ “investigates further (perhaps to find out more precisely what he is up against)” (p. 193).

Towards the book’s end, Boyd removes what little doubt remains that he is to be taken seriously, by claiming that the incarnation was an act of war, an essential part of Jesus' purpose in winning back to God that which is under the tyrannical rule of another.

Boyd’s excursions, drawing upon Near Eastern writings, angelic hierarchies of often disobedient rulers over the earth, battles over creation, failing exorcisms, and incarnation as war, go beyond the realm of any reasoned interpretation of the Scriptures and reveal how far Boyd has strayed. The ideas expressed by Boyd should give anyone great pause. Boyd would have us believe that God and Satan are in a cage match, and God is forced to employ rope-a-dope tactics in the title fight of the cosmos. The things Boyd and others write should not surprise anyone, for this are the lengths that must taken in order to account for the position that God’s creatures can thwart God. It is too bad that godrulz cannot remember his own plea made a few years ago:
Why limit the sovereign God?
Indeed.

To claim this kind of thinking is a “masterful” effort, as godrulz does, exposes some significant gullibility issues. In fact, I cannot recall anything that Boyd has written that godrulz has not failed to gush over.


Boyd is no longer a theologian held in respect, but he clearly has a bright future helping Hollywood on planned sequels to Constantine.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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From God's perspective, right now (as you read this today) do you believe that there are actual contingencies regarding the unfolding events of the future?

Or, does God know (right now as you read this) every event, in every detail, as it will unfold throughout all of time?

Asked another way.... (yet still from God's perspective)
Is the future entirely settled, or just partially settled?
All possibilities and all realities are known by God. God knows all contingencies. But, and this is important, they are not contingent to God. God is not waiting for possibilities to become actualities before He knows what will happen. From God's perspective, the future is completely (every event, every detail) known to Him.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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There is NO assumption. The evidence is RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU.
The assumption is on your part. You read the verses and say, yup, Paul is speaking as an unbeliever. I read the verses, and, using careful analysis of the context and the grammar, say, Paul is speaking as a believer. You hang your opinion on the questions you are posing below because the appear in the passage. You have some key phrases that you zero in on all the time when discussing your view of the sinlessness of the believer and draw unwarranted conclusions when you encounter these phrases elsewhere.

You ignore that Chapters 7 and 8 are written as a unified whole for mature Christians, but with different perspectives of Christian life.

You have ignored my comments showing the clear change of tense between Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:14-25. Verses 7-13 are clearly describing how Paul was led to Christ by the law. But something changes beginning in verse 14. It cannot be just more of the same from verses 7-13. The two sections are clearly demarcated by discussion of the value of the law (v. 7-13), how the law aids in Paul's salvation, and the believer's ongoing conflict with the law (v. 14-25) as they struggle with sanctification.

You assume based on appearances of "captive to the law of sin" (v. 23), "of the flesh" (v. 14), and "wretched man" (v. 24), that Romans 7:14-25 describes an unbeliever. But you ignore that the very same passage you claim Paul to be speaking as an unbeliever contains statements that only a believer could possibly make: Paul desires to obey God’s law, hates sin (v. 15, 19, 21); humility and knows there is nothing good in his flesh (v. 17, 20-22), serves Christ with his mind (v.25).

As I noted previously, in verses 7-13, Paul is referring to his past experience of realization of sin through the law. In verses 14-25, Paul is referring to his ongoing struggle with what the law continues to reveal to him.

You won't accept the interpretation because you hold that the saved cannot sin. So, when you read these verses where Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin and pursuit of sanctification you won't see it.

The key to grasping Paul's perspective is the ability to hold in tension seemingly conflicting points of view in the present eschatological age in which we are living. What is true positionally for the believer is not always true practically in the believer's experience. Seemingly, if we are no longer slaves to sin, we would never sin again and perfectionism would be achieved.

But, whenever we see Paul chastising sinning believers such as the Corinthians or the Galatians, we never see him accusing them of not being Christians. Yes, Paul called them childish, immature, weak, but not the unregenerate. Paul clearly understood the tension between positional truth and practical expression. So in his own life Paul could wail about the intense realization and of the pull of sin and its continual assault on the members of the body and its use of the law to provoke him to sin, while at the same time Paul confesses that "I delight in the law of God, in my inner being" (v. 22). No unbeliever delights in God's law, for as Paul writes, unbelievers view God's truth as foolishness, not a source of delight (1 Corinthians 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
 
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Clete

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All possibilities and all realities are known by God. God knows all contingencies. But, and this is important, they are not contingent to God. God is not waiting for possibilities to become actualities before He knows what will happen. From God's perspective, the future is completely (every event, every detail) known to Him.

And of course God's perspective is the only actual reality. Something cannot be both contingent and not contingent.

Calvinism is filled to overflowing with exactly this sort of double talk. I can't understand how anyone can believe a word of it. And in fact, very often, when someone does reject the Christian faith, it is precisely this sort of non-sense that they are actually rejecting and not the truth of Scripture. Mr. Religion here has a bigger problem than most though because he knew when he wrote this that it was self-contradictory - he knew it and wrote it anyway. Wow, would I hate to be him on judgment day!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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The assumption is on your part. You read the verses and say, yup, Paul is speaking as an unbeliever. I read the verses, and, using careful analysis of the context and the grammar, say, Paul is speaking as a believer. You hang your opinion on the questions you are posing below because the appear in the passage. You have some key phrases that you zero in on all the time when discussing your view of the sinlessness of the believer and draw unwarranted conclusions when you encounter these phrases elsewhere.

You ignore that Chapters 7 and 8 are written as a unified whole for mature Christians, but with different perspectives of Christian life.

You have ignored my comments showing the clear change of tense between Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:14-25. Verses 7-13 are clearly describing how Paul was led to Christ by the law. But something changes beginning in verse 14. It cannot be just more of the same from verses 7-13. The two sections are clearly demarcated by discussion of the value of the law (v. 7-13), how the law aids in Paul's salvation, and the believer's ongoing conflict with the law (v. 14-25) as they struggle with sanctification.

You assume based on appearances of "captive to the law of sin" (v. 23), "of the flesh" (v. 14), and "wretched man" (v. 24), that Romans 7:14-25 describes an unbeliever. But you ignore that the very same passage you claim Paul to be speaking as an unbeliever contains statements that only a believer could possibly make: Paul desires to obey God’s law, hates sin (v. 15, 19, 21); humility and knows there is nothing good in his flesh (v. 17, 20-22), serves Christ with his mind (v.25).

As I noted previously, in verses 7-13, Paul is referring to his past experience of realization of sin through the law. In verses 14-25, Paul is referring to his ongoing struggle with what the law continues to reveal to him.

You won't accept the interpretation because you hold that the saved cannot sin. So, when you read these verses where Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin and pursuit of sanctification you won't see it.

The key to grasping Paul's perspective is the ability to hold in tension seemingly conflicting points of view in the present eschatological age in which we are living. What is true positionally for the believer is not always true practically in the believer's experience. Seemingly, if we are no longer slaves to sin, we would never sin again and perfectionism would be achieved.

But, whenever we see Paul chastising sinning believers such as the Corinthians or the Galatians, we never see him accusing them of not being Christians. Yes, Paul called them childish, immature, weak, but not the unregenerate. Paul clearly understood the tension between positional truth and practical expression. So in his own life Paul could wail about the intense realization and of the pull of sin and its continual assault on the members of the body and its use of the law to provoke him to sin, while at the same time Paul confesses that "I delight in the law of God, in my inner being" (v. 22). No unbeliever delights in God's law, for as Paul writes, unbelievers view God's truth as foolishness, not a source of delight (1 Corinthians 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

While AMR is crushing Mystery on this issue (sorry Mystery but that's just the way I see it.), the thing one should notice is how AMR adopts on Open View perspective when not discussing Calvinism.

Read through his post with the notions of Sovereignty (meticulous control) and Predestination and the rest of the Calvinist primary doctrines in mind and see if you can detect where one must implicitly suspend those beliefs in order to say the things he says. It's similar to how the atheist borrows from the Christian worldview when doing their science or having a conversation at the coffee shop. Of course, if you're a Calvinist you probably won't see it. I've become convinced however that AMR does see it and intentionally chooses to ignore it for fear of the consequences.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
The assumption is on your part. You read the verses and say, yup, Paul is speaking as an unbeliever. I read the verses, and, using careful analysis of the context and the grammar, say, Paul is speaking as a believer. You hang your opinion on the questions you are posing below because the appear in the passage. You have some key phrases that you zero in on all the time when discussing your view of the sinlessness of the believer and draw unwarranted conclusions when you encounter these phrases elsewhere.

You ignore that Chapters 7 and 8 are written as a unified whole for mature Christians, but with different perspectives of Christian life.

You have ignored my comments showing the clear change of tense between Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:14-25. Verses 7-13 are clearly describing how Paul was led to Christ by the law. But something changes beginning in verse 14. It cannot be just more of the same from verses 7-13. The two sections are clearly demarcated by discussion of the value of the law (v. 7-13), how the law aids in Paul's salvation, and the believer's ongoing conflict with the law (v. 14-25) as they struggle with sanctification.

You assume based on appearances of "captive to the law of sin" (v. 23), "of the flesh" (v. 14), and "wretched man" (v. 24), that Romans 7:14-25 describes an unbeliever. But you ignore that the very same passage you claim Paul to be speaking as an unbeliever contains statements that only a believer could possibly make: Paul desires to obey God’s law, hates sin (v. 15, 19, 21); humility and knows there is nothing good in his flesh (v. 17, 20-22), serves Christ with his mind (v.25).

As I noted previously, in verses 7-13, Paul is referring to his past experience of realization of sin through the law. In verses 14-25, Paul is referring to his ongoing struggle with what the law continues to reveal to him.

You won't accept the interpretation because you hold that the saved cannot sin. So, when you read these verses where Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin and pursuit of sanctification you won't see it.

The key to grasping Paul's perspective is the ability to hold in tension seemingly conflicting points of view in the present eschatological age in which we are living. What is true positionally for the believer is not always true practically in the believer's experience. Seemingly, if we are no longer slaves to sin, we would never sin again and perfectionism would be achieved.

But, whenever we see Paul chastising sinning believers such as the Corinthians or the Galatians, we never see him accusing them of not being Christians. Yes, Paul called them childish, immature, weak, but not the unregenerate. Paul clearly understood the tension between positional truth and practical expression. So in his own life Paul could wail about the intense realization and of the pull of sin and its continual assault on the members of the body and its use of the law to provoke him to sin, while at the same time Paul confesses that "I delight in the law of God, in my inner being" (v. 22). No unbeliever delights in God's law, for as Paul writes, unbelievers view God's truth as foolishness, not a source of delight (1 Corinthians 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Yes, I agree AMR with your position and teaching on this portion of Scripture.

Paul describes a tension between spirit and flesh that only a Christian experiences.

There is no such tension in an unsaved man, who knows nothing but his corruption.

In fact, that is one of the distinguishing marks of a true Christian: He anguishes over his sins and continually repents of the weakness of his flesh.

Which is the exact opposite of what marks the unregenerate:

". . .There is none who seeks after God; they have all turned aside. . ." Romans 3:11&12



Nang
 

Mystery

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Neither AMR, or any of you other godless idiots will dare to answer my questions, because it confirms that you don't know crap about Romans 7.

Was Paul in bondage to sin as a Christian?

Was Paul in the flesh as a Christian?

Was Paul a wretched man as a Christian?

This is the single piece of evidence that everone of you are members of anti-Christ cults.
 

Clete

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Neither AMR, or any of you other godless idiots will dare to answer my questions, because it confirms that you don't know crap about Romans 7.

Was Paul in bondage to sin as a Christian?

Was Paul in the flesh as a Christian?

Was Paul a wretched man as a Christian?

This is the single piece of evidence that everyone of you are members of anti-Christ cults.
I agree with you that they are afraid to answer your questions directly but that's primarily because you make it so obvious that they are loaded questions. AMR is actually answering your questions from a more fundamental level. If you're right, just respond to his argument as he presents it and don't go ballistic - please!

I actually see merit on both sides of the argument but anyone who actually reads AMR's response to your position is going to think you're getting beaten here, Mystery. If you stick with your same debate tactic, he got you beat. He's not won the war, mind you, but its your own tactics that are playing into his hands and giving him the battle.

The truth is the important thing here Mystery. You know he's not going to debate you on your terms and if you insist on trying to make him do so, you've lost. Take the battle to him. If you do and you are right, and perhaps even if you are not, you'll crush him because you're smarter than he is and you actually understand the Bible and who God is! AMR knows nothing but how to bloviate.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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